Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 3:26:09 GMT
Hello. Are you ready for this? ::freakout::
Something for the Heretics new and old to chew on….I’m sure this would cause Black Crow to spontaneously combust in a spray of feathers, but hey, it’s fun. It’s not like we have any new material to analyze or anything.
To preface: some other outside-the-box thinker, I believe our very own Weasel Pie (sandwiches , had pointed out some Heresies back the connection between ASOIAF and GRRM’s first love: comic superheroes. (Please feel free to dredge up that convo and repost here.) Anyway, while we have been prattling on about Arthurian romances and Tudor treacheries and even dissertation-level theories of mythical astronomy and geophysics , we have overlooked the presence of his first and perhaps greatest source of inspiration: the Muse of Marvel.
This insane little (HA!) theory I’m about to detail is that ASOIAF is actually an amalgamation of early arcs from the Silver and Bronze ages of Marvel comics, reworking characters and storylines that originated during GRRM's formative years between 1960 and 1975. Think I’m dreaming? I offer you proof that our dear Gurm was in fact heavily invested in the action comic realm during this time: letters written to the editors of Marvel comics by a 12-&15yo Martin circa 1963 and 1965.
Think this youthful folly was inconsequential to the blossoming of a future writing career? Think again.
The Man Himself also confirms the span of his comic obsession in his own Not A Blog post from July of this year about the recent Ant-Man movie:
Hank Pym’s stint as Ant-Man falls within the timeframe upon which I focus in this essay, whereas Scott Lang makes his first appearance in 1979, when GRRM's readership was waning.
“What the hell, Pig?” you may be asking. “Snorted too much mud lately?” Well, yes…but no. Oddly enough, this came to mind courtesy of my kids, who are scabby-knees deep into Marvel characters and can’t get enough of Spidey, Wolverine, Hulk, and the like. My husband contributed to their violence quotient and brain-cell decay by scouring eBay for no less than 400 dvds about every Marvel character ever, and of course within this collection lies the adventures of Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme. OK, so what. Where’s the connection, Porky?
First, after cursorily glancing at the screen during one of the episodes, I noticed that Dr. Strange bears a striking resemblance to the show and GRRM-sanctioned art versions of Petyr Baelish. No, really.
Even the fanart! WTF!
I mean, come on. (But don’t get excited – I'm not proposing that Littlefinger is Dr. Strange. He isn't. He’s someone else. LOL)
Then, after finally taking a load off to sit down and WATCH the episodes in full and paying attention to characters and plot, I thought to myself, “Wow, I know these archetypes. I recognize some of this.” Realization dawning, I remembered the convo about GRRM and his beloved superheroes, and also remembered that Dr. Strange is actually one of the older Marvel characters – not Captain America old, but certainly from the era of George’s hippy dippy trippy dawning literary consciousness. So I thought, “I wonder….” and summoned all my powers of Google-Fu to learn more about this strange Dr. Strange. This led me waaaayyy down the rabbit hole to a discovery that is, uh, (third) eye-opening. Like, literally, as you will see.
Note 1: As we are talking Marvel comics with its 1,935,284 characters, I will do this in segments and provide short Character Recaps for each. When you see a ** after a name, it have a Character Recap. Unfortunately, characters will lead to sub-characters and sub-sub-characters and side plots and so forth ad infinitum...but the many trails of bread crumbs all lead back to the various arcs in discussion.
Note 2: All of this information has been culled from regular Wikipedia, the Marvel Character Wikia, Marvel.com, MarvelDirectory.com, ComicVine, and the Comic Book Database. It has been condensed for length because the Marvel realm is vast and full of details, and I would break the board if I tried to quote and direct-link everything, but other than that the info is straight from the sources and is unchanged beyond minor paraphrasing. The beauty is that the Marvelverse is VERY well documented….so if you are skeptical or don’t believe the info I’ve included here, you are welcome to do exactly as I did – rub some nerd on it and take your own dive into the deep part of the graphic novel ocean. It’s all there.
I apologize in advance for the length, but seriously, the Marvel Multiverse is like ASOIAF on mutant-level steroids. Stay with me; I think you will find it rewarding in the end. (Although now that I'm actually posting it, I admit I'm starting to feel a little silly for spending so much effort on something so...non-literary.)
DISCLAIMER: This enterprise is not intended to debunk or discredit other theories floating around out there, or imply that all other parallels from all other sources are invalid. That is clearly, obviously, simply not true. GRRM has often cited the real-life Wars of the Roses, and Norse mythology, and Greco-Roman history, etc as sources of influence. Aerys II's entire storyline is for the most part the Rise of Emperor Nero meets the Fall of King Xerxes I….read the history and it’s clear where the background of the Mad King originated. I’ve no doubt that there is even truth to the symbolism around lunar events /celestial patterns / heliotrope /Joyeuse Garde and all that other stuff, too. And football....gods, don't forget football. As freyfamilyreunion noted in the Astronomy thread, “I basically think that ASOIAF is an homage to everything that Martin finds interesting.” It totally is....but some things were clearly more interesting than others.
Keep in mind, though, that the authors and illustrators of Marvel comics drew from the same deep well of information – our own history, lore, and legend has spawned many an archetype and many a classic tale that far predate and have much greater dispersion than anything related to ASOIAF. Therefore, it shouldn’t be a surprise that the same stories/characters/plotlines show up in the same places.
My goal is merely to highlight those remarkable and numerous similarities, reveal the resolution of the similar arcs IN THE COMICS, and generate some fun discussion about the endgame of ASOIAF and place friendly non-wagers on the outcome of the series based on the outcome of the comics.
I will begin the journey with what I will refer to as the Great Arc, which parallels the conflict surrounding Bran, Bloodraven, R’hllor, and the Great Other. The Great Arc is going to segue into/overlap with what I call the Origin Arc, which is the history of the North, the North’s relationship with the Valyrians, and the CotF. I will conclude with the Modern Arc, covering events around Robert’s Rebellion and up to current day. Editor’s note: these three arcs do not always directly intersect in the Marvelverse….the worlds exist contemporaneously, events are occurring simultaneously, and there is character crossover in many cases, but I believe George is doing what perhaps he wishes the comics had done – tie all these cool stories together into one gigantic tale.
A Word on Entities and Origin Stories:
There has been much discussion on fan sites of the potential beginnings and backstories regarding several of the more nebulous characters in ASOIAF: the CotF, R'hllor, the Others, the Night's King, etc. We have gotten some background in the main series and in TWOIAF, although the majority of the explanation falls into the "myths and legends" category as per the maesters...and per GRRM himself through various interviews and SSMs. He cautions readers as to what these are: stories thousands to tens of thousands of years old, that may or may not contain some grains of truth, and that cannot be verified one way or another (possibly because they haven’t been written yet, har).
The Marvel Multiverse operates the same way - there are beings and non-beings and races that inhabit/come from worlds and spheres and dimensions beyond that of Earth. There is no debate about origin in the Marvelverse; whatever is merely IS. Regardless of what entity might zap itself through whatever portal to overtake the mind of whichever character, the other characters simply shrug it off without really questioning the existence of this entity: "So this Satannish is a malevolent energy-demon that resides beyond the limits of time and consciousness? Sweet, let's get rid of this fucker!" They don't spend countless hours discussing the realm from which Satannish came or how he could have possibly evolved to end up currently flinging fistfuls of demon-shit at the Avengers. It’s a comic. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
Given the amount of inspiration that GRRM has drawn from Marvel, I think it behooves us as readers to adopt that same mindset with regard to certain elements of ASOIAF - those already referenced in the story and those possibly yet to come. George's cautionary tale over the years has been consistently "because fantasy", which is the Marvel premise in a nutshell. As I lay out the Great Arc and the Origin Arc in particular, try to push the confines of reality to the back of your mind and let imagination take over. That's what George did as a youth when eagerly poring through the pages of a new issue, and I believe that's what he wants us to do as well.
OKAY…..enough yapping. Let us begin with all things mystical, magical, and Strange.
Something for the Heretics new and old to chew on….I’m sure this would cause Black Crow to spontaneously combust in a spray of feathers, but hey, it’s fun. It’s not like we have any new material to analyze or anything.
To preface: some other outside-the-box thinker, I believe our very own Weasel Pie (sandwiches , had pointed out some Heresies back the connection between ASOIAF and GRRM’s first love: comic superheroes. (Please feel free to dredge up that convo and repost here.) Anyway, while we have been prattling on about Arthurian romances and Tudor treacheries and even dissertation-level theories of mythical astronomy and geophysics , we have overlooked the presence of his first and perhaps greatest source of inspiration: the Muse of Marvel.
This insane little (HA!) theory I’m about to detail is that ASOIAF is actually an amalgamation of early arcs from the Silver and Bronze ages of Marvel comics, reworking characters and storylines that originated during GRRM's formative years between 1960 and 1975. Think I’m dreaming? I offer you proof that our dear Gurm was in fact heavily invested in the action comic realm during this time: letters written to the editors of Marvel comics by a 12-&15yo Martin circa 1963 and 1965.
Think this youthful folly was inconsequential to the blossoming of a future writing career? Think again.
“These letters allowed Martin to enjoy a sort of celebrity among comic book fandom. Other fans wrote him letters in reply, and he eventually began writing critical essays for comic fanzines, such as YMiR, Batwing, and Countdown. Martin later went on to write some stories for Star Studded Comics, a fanzine that published original fiction.”
I was a little disappointed going in when I heard that this would be the Scott Lang Ant-Man and not the original Hank Pym Ant-Man of my youth. Scott Lang came in just about the time when my regular comics reading was falling off, so I did not know the character very well…”
“What the hell, Pig?” you may be asking. “Snorted too much mud lately?” Well, yes…but no. Oddly enough, this came to mind courtesy of my kids, who are scabby-knees deep into Marvel characters and can’t get enough of Spidey, Wolverine, Hulk, and the like. My husband contributed to their violence quotient and brain-cell decay by scouring eBay for no less than 400 dvds about every Marvel character ever, and of course within this collection lies the adventures of Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme. OK, so what. Where’s the connection, Porky?
First, after cursorily glancing at the screen during one of the episodes, I noticed that Dr. Strange bears a striking resemblance to the show and GRRM-sanctioned art versions of Petyr Baelish. No, really.
Even the fanart! WTF!
I mean, come on. (But don’t get excited – I'm not proposing that Littlefinger is Dr. Strange. He isn't. He’s someone else. LOL)
Then, after finally taking a load off to sit down and WATCH the episodes in full and paying attention to characters and plot, I thought to myself, “Wow, I know these archetypes. I recognize some of this.” Realization dawning, I remembered the convo about GRRM and his beloved superheroes, and also remembered that Dr. Strange is actually one of the older Marvel characters – not Captain America old, but certainly from the era of George’s hippy dippy trippy dawning literary consciousness. So I thought, “I wonder….” and summoned all my powers of Google-Fu to learn more about this strange Dr. Strange. This led me waaaayyy down the rabbit hole to a discovery that is, uh, (third) eye-opening. Like, literally, as you will see.
Note 1: As we are talking Marvel comics with its 1,935,284 characters, I will do this in segments and provide short Character Recaps for each. When you see a ** after a name, it have a Character Recap. Unfortunately, characters will lead to sub-characters and sub-sub-characters and side plots and so forth ad infinitum...but the many trails of bread crumbs all lead back to the various arcs in discussion.
Note 2: All of this information has been culled from regular Wikipedia, the Marvel Character Wikia, Marvel.com, MarvelDirectory.com, ComicVine, and the Comic Book Database. It has been condensed for length because the Marvel realm is vast and full of details, and I would break the board if I tried to quote and direct-link everything, but other than that the info is straight from the sources and is unchanged beyond minor paraphrasing. The beauty is that the Marvelverse is VERY well documented….so if you are skeptical or don’t believe the info I’ve included here, you are welcome to do exactly as I did – rub some nerd on it and take your own dive into the deep part of the graphic novel ocean. It’s all there.
I apologize in advance for the length, but seriously, the Marvel Multiverse is like ASOIAF on mutant-level steroids. Stay with me; I think you will find it rewarding in the end. (Although now that I'm actually posting it, I admit I'm starting to feel a little silly for spending so much effort on something so...non-literary.)
DISCLAIMER: This enterprise is not intended to debunk or discredit other theories floating around out there, or imply that all other parallels from all other sources are invalid. That is clearly, obviously, simply not true. GRRM has often cited the real-life Wars of the Roses, and Norse mythology, and Greco-Roman history, etc as sources of influence. Aerys II's entire storyline is for the most part the Rise of Emperor Nero meets the Fall of King Xerxes I….read the history and it’s clear where the background of the Mad King originated. I’ve no doubt that there is even truth to the symbolism around lunar events /celestial patterns / heliotrope /Joyeuse Garde and all that other stuff, too. And football....gods, don't forget football. As freyfamilyreunion noted in the Astronomy thread, “I basically think that ASOIAF is an homage to everything that Martin finds interesting.” It totally is....but some things were clearly more interesting than others.
Keep in mind, though, that the authors and illustrators of Marvel comics drew from the same deep well of information – our own history, lore, and legend has spawned many an archetype and many a classic tale that far predate and have much greater dispersion than anything related to ASOIAF. Therefore, it shouldn’t be a surprise that the same stories/characters/plotlines show up in the same places.
My goal is merely to highlight those remarkable and numerous similarities, reveal the resolution of the similar arcs IN THE COMICS, and generate some fun discussion about the endgame of ASOIAF and place friendly non-wagers on the outcome of the series based on the outcome of the comics.
I will begin the journey with what I will refer to as the Great Arc, which parallels the conflict surrounding Bran, Bloodraven, R’hllor, and the Great Other. The Great Arc is going to segue into/overlap with what I call the Origin Arc, which is the history of the North, the North’s relationship with the Valyrians, and the CotF. I will conclude with the Modern Arc, covering events around Robert’s Rebellion and up to current day. Editor’s note: these three arcs do not always directly intersect in the Marvelverse….the worlds exist contemporaneously, events are occurring simultaneously, and there is character crossover in many cases, but I believe George is doing what perhaps he wishes the comics had done – tie all these cool stories together into one gigantic tale.
A Word on Entities and Origin Stories:
There has been much discussion on fan sites of the potential beginnings and backstories regarding several of the more nebulous characters in ASOIAF: the CotF, R'hllor, the Others, the Night's King, etc. We have gotten some background in the main series and in TWOIAF, although the majority of the explanation falls into the "myths and legends" category as per the maesters...and per GRRM himself through various interviews and SSMs. He cautions readers as to what these are: stories thousands to tens of thousands of years old, that may or may not contain some grains of truth, and that cannot be verified one way or another (possibly because they haven’t been written yet, har).
The Marvel Multiverse operates the same way - there are beings and non-beings and races that inhabit/come from worlds and spheres and dimensions beyond that of Earth. There is no debate about origin in the Marvelverse; whatever is merely IS. Regardless of what entity might zap itself through whatever portal to overtake the mind of whichever character, the other characters simply shrug it off without really questioning the existence of this entity: "So this Satannish is a malevolent energy-demon that resides beyond the limits of time and consciousness? Sweet, let's get rid of this fucker!" They don't spend countless hours discussing the realm from which Satannish came or how he could have possibly evolved to end up currently flinging fistfuls of demon-shit at the Avengers. It’s a comic. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
Given the amount of inspiration that GRRM has drawn from Marvel, I think it behooves us as readers to adopt that same mindset with regard to certain elements of ASOIAF - those already referenced in the story and those possibly yet to come. George's cautionary tale over the years has been consistently "because fantasy", which is the Marvel premise in a nutshell. As I lay out the Great Arc and the Origin Arc in particular, try to push the confines of reality to the back of your mind and let imagination take over. That's what George did as a youth when eagerly poring through the pages of a new issue, and I believe that's what he wants us to do as well.
OKAY…..enough yapping. Let us begin with all things mystical, magical, and Strange.