Can totally see it. I just think the contrast between Arya and Sansa is interesting. Both cause their misery, but neither seems all that miserable now that they have approached/are approaching womanhood. Arya was abducted, but it was almost on purpose each time. (Not really, but almost...) She quickly turned the tables on her captors and used them as launch pads.
True--though Arya also gets help.
When Cersei's men come for Arya, she's about to go with them until Syrio intervenes and gets Arya to think about it.
When Cersei sends Ser Boros (yup, it was him) to get Sansa (while Boros is wearing a lion pin--oh yeah, that man's a Lannister lackey), Sansa is alone with Jeyne Poole. Sansa has no one saying "hey, take another look." She just thinks she is determined to be a lady--she only has her Septa in her head. Syrio would have been a lot more help. Ned's education for Arya was better chosen than for Sansa.
In short, Arya escapes in part because she gets help. I'm thinking Lyanna might have been warned, too. And given time to run.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm still not entirely sure what to make of it. I can tell that there's something there, but I'm still putting the pieces together. I might need to go back and reread the prior couple Theon chapters too. My hunch is that the Greyjoys here are reflective of the Lannisters, but in what and how much so I'm uncertain. What I don't like is that Theon is planning this without his father's approval. That would be Rhaegar planning this without Tywin's approval. I wonder if in this case, this is actually an inversion of what occurred before. That seems to make more sense. Now in Theon's plan he uses Torrhen's Square as a decoy to capture Winterfell. Played out straight, that would be using Elia as a feint to distract from Lyanna. If it's an inversion would that mean the opposite?
I suck at the whole inversion thing. So I'm unlikely to be much help.
But I'm not sure if Tywin is the father figure in this analogy: Balon has mad plans for his kingdom. Aerys was an unfit ruler, too. If Rhaegar found/took Lyanna and decided to use her for political gain, decided to sit out the war on his won, might not that be the "inversion" or at least "variation" of Theon? Choosing to undermine his father vs. trying to impress him and prove himself to him?
I completely forgot that Jaime referred to the Smiling Knight that way. Curiouser and Curiouser...
We also have this odd passage re: the Kingswood Brotherhood: Arya's dreaming of Wenda the White Fawn and being an outlaw--like the Kingswood Brotherhood. Only to then think it's just a silly dream and that she's thinking like Sansa.
The Hound no longer watched her as closely as he had. Sometimes he did not seem to care whether she stayed or went, and he no longer bound her up in a cloak at night. One night I'll kill him in his sleep, she told herself, but she never did. One day I'll ride away on Craven, and he won't be able to catch me, she thought, but she never did that either. Where would she go? Winterfell was gone. Her grandfather's brother was at Riverrun, but he didn't know her, no more than she knew him. Maybe Lady Smallwood would take her in at Acorn Hall, but maybe she wouldn't. Besides, Arya wasn't even sure she could find Acorn Hall again. Sometimes she thought she might go back to Sharna's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.
But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all. Storm, Arya XII
And when did Tywin actually care about the actual people in his family? His only concern was in how his family was perceived by others. If Jaime died a hero, the family legacy would remain intact.
HA! Very true. And if Jaime died in defense of it all, all the more reason for Rhaegar to agree to marry Cersei.
When you think back to the time surrounding the rebellion when all this would be occurring can any of you think of a character that could be referred to as "the Bastard?" It's a delineation that seems to crop up a lot in these echo scenes. Both Jon and Arya have been seen to fit into it.
I can't. Though if Lyanna was ever disguised, that might fit, too. Since both Sansa and Arya think of themselves as bastards at some point, see it as power, I could see Lyanna's being disguised that way.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I suck at the whole inversion thing. So I'm unlikely to be much help.
I'm great at finding them, but I suck at interpreting them. I keep hoping that the more I find the easier it will get and the pieces will start to fall together, but not yet.
But I'm not sure if Tywin is the father figure in this analogy: Balon has mad plans for his kingdom. Aerys was an unfit ruler, too. If Rhaegar found/took Lyanna and decided to use her for political gain, decided to sit out the war on his won, might not that be the "inversion" or at least "variation" of Theon? Choosing to undermine his father vs. trying to impress him and prove himself to him?
Honestly, the more that I think about it the more convinced I am that he (Tywin) is. It could just be that I want to see it that way, but I don't think so. Balon is trying to carve a kingdom out for himself, as is Tywin. What benefit would any of this have for Aerys? None. It might benefit Rhaegar, but unless he was a lot more power hungry and ruthless than we hear it really doesn't fir with his character.
We also have this odd passage re: the Kingswood Brotherhood: Arya's dreaming of Wenda the White Fawn and being an outlaw--like the Kingswood Brotherhood. Only to then think it's just a silly dream and that she's thinking like Sansa.
Now if only I could figure out how to fit that in somehow...
I can't. Though if Lyanna was ever disguised, that might fit, too. Since both Sansa and Arya think of themselves as bastards at some point, see it as power, I could see Lyanna's being disguised that way.
I agree with Lyanna possibly being disguised as a bastard at some point, but I don't think that's it. It's one of those things that I keep looking for in my readings. Pigs, cats, sheep and bastards.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Honestly, the more that I think about it the more convinced I am that he (Tywin) is. It could just be that I want to see it that way, but I don't think so. Balon is trying to carve a kingdom out for himself, as is Tywin. What benefit would any of this have for Aerys? None. It might benefit Rhaegar, but unless he was a lot more power hungry and ruthless than we hear it really doesn't fir with his character.
Possible. This is always where I run into trouble with inversions. I do a lot better with your echo metaphor. Less precise, more messy, but doesn't require me to figure out the mirror image of two things.
Now if only I could figure out how to fit that in somehow...
i've only just started thinking about the Kingswood Brotherhood, so I've no idea either. But romanticizing a group of outlaws--Arya does it AND thinks Sansa would have done it, too. If Lyanna was on the run, seems like an idea like that might cross her mind.
Or that it's just a reference we're supposed to pay attention to. . . and I don't yet know why.
I agree with Lyanna possibly being disguised as a bastard at some point, but I don't think that's it. It's one of those things that I keep looking for in my readings. Pigs, cats, sheep and bastards.
I really don't think so. I think that Arya is our decoy. Everyone wants to look at her and see Lyanna. That's not who she is.
HA! We'll never get this settled until the books come out. I'm sold on Sansa as an echo, as you know. And that her attraction to knights/fighters over princes is significant. Same with Arya. And you know how I feel about Sansa's going to Baelish's unnamed tower.
But which girl gives us the better picture of Lyanna's storyline? Are we supposed to choose one? Combine them somehow? UGH! I do not know.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
A different version of this scenario crossed my path just the other day and I must say I find it a refreshing and plausible theory. Tywin has a history of wiping out entire families to consolidate and maximize his power. Why not the Targaryens too? If Duskendale represents his first attempt, honing in on the next very suitable opportunity was just a matter of time. The version I read earlier has the Kingswood Brotherhood playing the role you ascribe to the three squires, whereby I would certainly go for your interpretation here. Those knights certainly had a big enough motive to agree to such a plan and the arguments regarding Rhaegar also fit.
SlyWren, But which girl gives us the better picture of Lyanna's storyline? Are we supposed to choose one? Combine them somehow? UGH! I do not know.
I'd definitely fo for Sansa. Her storyline mirrors Lyanna’s much better in many ways, especially in respect of her capture and imprisonment in the Red Keep. If she did try to escape, she was recaptured and any further attempts couldn’t have amounted to much if she tried at all. I see Boros Blount’s potential involvement as particularly significant here – he is directly connected to Sansa, had no qualms about beating her and I imagine he would have vented his anger on Lyanna as well. A most awful thought crosses my mind, especially when I think of the Show featuring Blount as part of Mace Tyrell’s entourage to Braavos, his perverse taste in very young girls and Arya’s exceedingly brutal killing of him……… God please no…. I don’t even want to think about this possibility. Fact is, she would have been in the ‘care’ of these knights for a while before being handed over to Rhaegar or any of his trusted Kingsguard.
I’ve always suspected that Rhaegar crowning Lyanna had more to do with identifying her to someone or to a group of someones rather than for romantic purposes. He might have had to do this to make sure the knights in question take the right girl.
Not quite sure I understand what you mean by a connection to bastards but if you're looking for one, how about Benjen?
Whatever took place, the whole thing ultimately leads to Jon’s birth and seen from that point of view, Benjen, as his uncle and member of the NW is the closest connection to Jon the Bastard. That a Nwatchman was present recruiting may be another hint (also to Jon as one of the final outcomes of the tourney).
I'll go away and ruminate on all this a bit. Certainly worth considering
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Lady Dyanna , I was thinking about your inverse problem tonight. What do you think of Theon as inverse of Lyanna via Jon? -He is a male child, taken to prevent war, by the Starks. He escapes, is captured again, and is "covered in gore" yet he lives -Rather than daughter of a house, he is heir to his own
-like a certain Night's Watch bastard, he will take no wife, father no children, nor wear a crown
Of Course! I'm quite excited to have you here. I love reading your thoughts. If I ever get around to it. I think I see a tie between your ideas on warging/skinchanging and voice's miasma theory. I already think that he's somewhere close to where you are in your essays on magic and the miasma.
I'd definitely fo for Sansa. Her storyline mirrors Lyanna’s much better in many ways
I feel like Arya is who we're supposed to be tricked into looking at because she's the one always compared to Lyanna. Sansa's ties are at times more symbolic, but I think, stronger
Not quite sure I understand what you mean by a connection to bastards but if you're looking for one, how about Benjen?
In at least two scenes that appear to be set up as echoes of the past there is a character that gets labeled as a "bastard." In the scene where Nymeria attacks Joff, earlier in that chapter Sansa thinks internally about how she asked her mother if Arya was a bastard like Jon. Also, in the scene at the wall where Jon defends Samwell, Ser Alliser refers to him as "the Bastard." I think that this is a role from the past that both of them are echoing. (Similar to how Sansa seems to echo Lyanna's circumstances in particular when it is noted that she is dressed in blue.) When Arya participates in the echoes, I believe that this is the role that she parallels, that of the bastard. But damned if I can definitively figure out who the bastard is meant to be. It's funny that you mention Benjen, because for quite a while that is who I have suspected, but I haven't been able to prove it. To complicate matters further, we have Sansa in hiding as a bastard girl while in the Vale, which then begs the question, is this something that Lyanna did as well, only in Dorne? But then, if this is the case, is Arya also playing Lyanna, or is there a second "bastard?" It's like trying to follow a trail of breadcrumbs that the birds have already half eaten.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Possible. This is always where I run into trouble with inversions. I do a lot better with your echo metaphor. Less precise, more messy, but doesn't require me to figure out the mirror image of two things.
I can't say that I'm all that thrilled with them either. I'm not sure that any of this is meant to be an exact "mirror image." If it is, then just shoot me now. I just think that certain parts of the echoes get twisted somehow, and it's hard to know exactly when and how. I'm still hopeful that the more we identify it will turn into a puzzle and the pieces will start to fit together better to make a picture for us.
i've only just started thinking about the Kingswood Brotherhood, so I've no idea either. But romanticizing a group of outlaws--Arya does it AND thinks Sansa would have done it, too. If Lyanna was on the run, seems like an idea like that might cross her mind.
I don't think that she was on the run independently. Even if you look at Arya and her time spent with the BwB, she didn't want to be there. If anything, I think that the KWB was somehow a decoy to draw suspicion away from whomever was responsible for taking Lyanna. Or meant to be that. Another thought. If Arya is indeed echoing Benjen, and a brother of the Night's Watch was in some way responsible for helping him get to safety, possibly at the expense of his own life, it might help to explain why Benjen was so keen on joining the Night's Watch.
A different version of this scenario crossed my path just the other day and I must say I find it a refreshing and plausible theory. Tywin has a history of wiping out entire families to consolidate and maximize his power. Why not the Targaryens too? If Duskendale represents his first attempt, honing in on the next very suitable opportunity was just a matter of time. The version I read earlier has the Kingswood Brotherhood playing the role you ascribe to the three squires, whereby I would certainly go for your interpretation here. Those knights certainly had a big enough motive to agree to such a plan and the arguments regarding Rhaegar also fit.
Very possible, since it's the version Tywin goes with in the end--siding with the extermination of Targaryens. So, that had to be part of his calculations.
But Rhaegar seems like a really good middle ground, since Rhaegar, too, wants his father off of the throne. Rhaegar is popular and much more reasonable that Daddy Dearest. If Tywin can get Rhaegar in power with Aerys dead, he would keep the country more stable, seems like Tywin would try for it. Especially since that option is more likely to get him back into the position of Hand. Robert or anyone else would be less likely to go with Tywin.
If he keeps Rhaegar and exposes that Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna, then Tywin gets the best of everything: a king most admire, his own Hardship, and, once Elia "succumbs" to her sickly nature, Cersei as queen.
I'd definitely fo for Sansa. Her storyline mirrors Lyanna’s much better in many ways, especially in respect of her capture and imprisonment in the Red Keep. If she did try to escape, she was recaptured and any further attempts couldn’t have amounted to much if she tried at all. I see Boros Blount’s potential involvement as particularly significant here – he is directly connected to Sansa, had no qualms about beating her and I imagine he would have vented his anger on Lyanna as well. A most awful thought crosses my mind, especially when I think of the Show featuring Blount as part of Mace Tyrell’s entourage to Braavos, his perverse taste in very young girls and Arya’s exceedingly brutal killing of him……… God please no…. I don’t even want to think about this possibility. Fact is, she would have been in the ‘care’ of these knights for a while before being handed over to Rhaegar or any of his trusted Kingsguard.
1. I agree re: Sansa as Lyanna's echo of plot line. Arya seems more the echo of Lyanna's character.
2. The scenario you posit is one of the reasons I really hope Lyanna ran and Rhaegar found her that way. If Tywin told them Lyanna was valuable, there's a reasonable chance they wouldn't hurt her too much--rather like Jaime saves Brienne by bringing up the idea of ransoming her to her family. But the idea that Lyanna could have been brutalized has crossed my mind. And it ain't pretty.
After all, Sansa's valuable but she still gets badly beaten.
I’ve always suspected that Rhaegar crowning Lyanna had more to do with identifying her to someone or to a group of someones rather than for romantic purposes. He might have had to do this to make sure the knights in question take the right girl.
That's a more sinister take on the crowning than I'd thought of. If Rhaegar was in on the whole plan from the start--yes, I could see that. But I'd assume Ned wouldn't have known that or his feelings towards Rhaegar would have been much less neutral.
One way or another, that crowning was off. The reaction alone tells us that. Something's up, and it ain't romantic.
I'll go away and ruminate on all this a bit. Certainly worth considering
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Thanks! It's turned into rather a smorgasbord of options in the OP, but I can't pin down exactly HOW it would have gone down. Only that there's a good case to make for Tywin's hand in it.
I can't say that I'm all that thrilled with them either. I'm not sure that any of this is meant to be an exact "mirror image." If it is, then just shoot me now. I just think that certain parts of the echoes get twisted somehow, and it's hard to know exactly when and how. I'm still hopeful that the more we identify it will turn into a puzzle and the pieces will start to fit together better to make a picture for us.
I don't think that she was on the run independently. Even if you look at Arya and her time spent with the BwB, she didn't want to be there. If anything, I think that the KWB was somehow a decoy to draw suspicion away from whomever was responsible for taking Lyanna. Or meant to be that.
Wait--I've been away for a bit and I think I'm a bit lost: do you think the Kingswood brotherhood was tied to Lyanna's disappearance? Or that their attack on Elia is echoing an attack on Lyanna by others (like the knights I'm positing, or others)?
If the first--I think they were done after Arthur and Barristan. But if the latter--yes, that I buy completely.
And would fit if the brotherhood were trying to start some sort of revolution--taking Elia as a very high-profile hostage to force the royals' hands. Or to fund themselves via ransom. It's rather insane if they are trying to start a war for themselves, though.
Another thought. If Arya is indeed echoing Benjen, and a brother of the Night's Watch was in some way responsible for helping him get to safety, possibly at the expense of his own life, it might help to explain why Benjen was so keen on joining the Night's Watch.
Wait--are you thinking Benjen was with Lyanna when she was taken? Have we discussed this before--I'm having forum deja vu. But yes, I could see that as driving Benjen's faith in the Watch. But I also though Benjen was in Winterfell for the war, so he would have had to get back pretty quick, unlike Arya.
I'll try not to. These damn echoes are going to do me in!
Earmuffs, maybe?? And I know how you feel.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I saw this passage while reading just now that compares Blount to Ser Osmund Kettleback and thought you might be interested in it.
Alas, Tyrion could not say the same for Cersei’s second choice. Ser Osmund Kettleblack looked formidable enough. He stood six feet and six inches, most of it sinew and muscle, and his hook nose, bushy eyebrows, and spade-shaped brown beard gave his face a fierce aspect, so long as he did not smile. Lowborn, no more than a hedge knight, Kettleblack was utterly dependent on Cersei for his advancement, which was doubtless why she’d picked him. “Ser Osmund is as loyal as he is brave,” she’d told Joffrey when she put forward his name. It was true, unfortunately. The good Ser Osmund had been selling her secrets to Bronn since the day she’d hired him, but Tyrion could scarcely tell her that. He supposed he ought not complain. The appointment gave him another ear close to the king, unbeknownst to his sister. And even if Ser Osmund proved an utter craven, he would be no worse than Ser Boros Blount, currently residing in a dungeon at Rosby. Ser Boros had been escorting Tommen and Lord Gyles when Ser Jacelyn Bywater and his gold cloaks had surprised them, and had yielded up his charge with an alacrity that would have enraged old Ser Barristan Selmy as much as it did Cersei; a knight of the Kingsguard was supposed to die in defense of the king and royal family. His sister had insisted that Joffrey strip Blount of his white cloak on the grounds of treason and cowardice. And now she replaces him with another man just as hollow.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I saw this passage while reading just now that compares Blount to Ser Osmund Kettleback and thought you might be interested in it.
AAAAHHHH!! I only read that passage for the Blount section. I didn't even think of the information given in the fact that he's compared to the Kettleblacks.
We've talked about how Baelish is a plotter like Tywin. I stressed that point in the OP. The Kettleblacks inform on Cersei to Tyrion. But they came to Tyrion via Baelish. We learn this in the Sansa chapter I'm supposed to be Forensic Filing:
"The hidden dagger."
"There's a clever girl." He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds. "When the Imp sent off her guards, the queen had Ser Lancel hire sellswords for her. Lancel found her the Kettleblacks, which delighted your little lord husband, since the lads were in his pay through his man Bronn." He chuckled. "But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King's Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed." Storm, Sansa VI
Three sellswords/hedge knights that Baelish put in place on purpose to do as he pleased.
The Ser Oswell on the Merling King? The one we talked about as potentially being an echo of Oswell Whent?
Oswellgrinned, showing a mouth of crooked teeth. "No, but m'lady might of met my three sons."
It was the "three sons," and that smile too. "Kettleblack!" Sansa's eyes went wide. "You're a Kettleblack!"
"Aye, m'lady, as it please you." Storm, Sansa VI
I KNEW that chapter had Lyanna info!!!
So, three Kettleblacks, one of whom is a knight, and their conniving father are used by the plotter Baelish to him steal a Stark maid. All while Tyrion and Cersei each think the three Kettleblacks work for them individually. An echo of Tywin's using three knights to "take" Lyanna?
We also have this from Ser Osmund:
"You can't make me."
"Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same." The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. "Escort Lady Sansa to the sept," she told them. "Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly."
Sansa tried to run, but Cersei's handmaid caught her before she'd gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, "Do as you're told, sweetling, it won't be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren't they?" Storm, Sansa III
And, given your point above re: Boros' being like Osmund, this really seems like the Kettleblacks are echoing the three knights Boros was likely in a group with--all defeated by the Laughing Knight. And all potentially working for Tywin.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.