How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight

How about Lannister father (Tywin) took the Stark daughter to his sister (Genna)s castle for safe keeping? If she was abducted in Riverlands with the help of Freys, why not taking her to the Twins? It also fits with Arya, who was also on it’s way there.

That's gotta be on the table.

I still think Baeli-sh taking Sansa-the-Stark-Maid to the unnamed, rundown tower with a pet name (Drearfort) is a big clue.

But going to family--it would work.

The question I'd have is Tywin's need for deniability. He wouldn't want this "traced" to him. If the Freys took her to the Twins--that would work. But taking her somewhere clearly tied to Lannisters seems. . . risky for Tywin. Given how he handles Duskendale and the Red Wedding.

He could and should care because Aerys thought that KotLT=Jamie. Tywin had men around Aerys and would want to know what is up with his son. Maybe Tywin even thought that Jamie was really behind it and he thus wanted to know more. Or he wanted to know who KotLT was just because there were rumours that his precious family was behind it.

All good.

Might also include the fact that Tywin was looking for ways to take out Aerys. Ways to manipulate the situation. All the kerfuffle at Harrenhal gives Tywin clues to who might be manipulatable in his attempt to take out Aerys.

It doesn't even matter if it was Lyanna, it's enough that Tywin thought she was or that he convinced his pawns that she was.

The exact identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree--I've been thinking lately that it's a misdirect. Figuring out the Mystery Knight--that what everyone want to do. Bran knows all about this when Meera tells him the story. It's standard.

But for causing trouble, which Stark or Stark ally was the Knight is not important. Simply claiming the Knight is a Stark would get Tywin a way to have the Starks attacked.

And if he did tell them it was Lyanna--we know older Boris Blount likes beating up little girls who are Stark Maids. Seems like a man like that would not take kindly to the idea of being beaten by a girl.

Then we have 7 vs 3. And Lyanna in the middle.

I second @kinglittelfinger:

Sept 17, 2017 15:44:06 GMT kinglittlefinger said:

!!!!!!!!

This is an awesome idea.

I've been arguing for a little while that the Hound's encounter with the Brotherhood without Banners echoes Ned's encounter with the toj Kingsguard.

But the idea that Rhaegar's band took Lyanna from her initial captors--it works. It's echoed in both Sansa and Arya--especially Sansa.

Blount the coward he is would either run away the moment he would sense truble, or even better-he did the same with Lyanna he did with Tommen. He yielded and gave Lyanna away. And I can see how Arthur(/Rhaegar) could spare a man who yielded. I doubt Blount would tell them how Tywin was behind it, he and his friends had a motive on their own (and Rhaegar who investigated KotLT would know this) and Tywin wouldn't tell them how he is taking advantage of them anyway.

Very possible--so you're thinking Rhaegar would just have used ti to his own advantage once he got Lyanna? Kinda like Baelish with Sansa? That works.

Might also be that Tywin told Rhaegar where to look for Lyanna--somehow, Tywin and Rhaegar had at least some level of cooperation in dealing with this rebellion--though I don't doubt Tywin was plotting behind Rhaegar's back, too.

Might also be they found Lyanna when she fled her attackers--as Arya gets found by Yoren. And but the BWB.

One way or another, really think Lysa's Moon Door Confessional should be a wake-up call to readers: what we think causes rebellions really might be wrong.

Robert's Rebellion really feels like a chess game: Tywin, Jon Arryn, Rhaegar--all vs. Aerys. Very nasty business.

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How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight Oct 9, 2017 20:01:19 GMT voice and SlyWren like this

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Post by LadyDarry on Oct 9, 2017 20:01:19 GMT

I've been arguing for a little while that the Hound's encounter with the Brotherhood without Banners echoes Ned's encounter with the toj Kingsguard.

Re reading Dunk&Egg made me see TOJ encounter in Dunk, Egg, Ser Eustace Osgrey going against Lady Rohanne Webber and her men after that woods fire (Yes, she has 33 men, but it is noted that she has dozen knights with her). At one point they wanted to fight in a tower. Because it would make more sense from tactical point of view to defend their position from a tower. Which is exactly what so many people are saying about TOJ. Why didn't kingsguard defend their postion from the tower. Maybe Dunk, a stand in for Arthur in that situation showed us why? And when Dunk, Egg and Ser Osgrey met Lady Webber it is evident that the whole fire thing was an misunderstanding and that both teams are innocent and no one set fire to the woods. We even have the whole thing ending with a battle in a river, where a guy who thinks he is entitled to a wedding with a lady in question doesn't know that this lady actually loves his opponent. I couldn't stop thinking about TOJ when reading all that. But maybe I am just looking too hard for TOJ echoes

Very possible--so you're thinking Rhaegar would just have used ti to his own advantage once he got Lyanna? Kinda like Baelish with Sansa? That works.

Might also be that Tywin told Rhaegar where to look for Lyanna--somehow, Tywin and Rhaegar had at least some level of cooperation in dealing with this rebellion--though I don't doubt Tywin was plotting behind Rhaegar's back, too.

And for starting a war, Tywin (and probably Rhaegar) don't need to be accurate about what happened. They just need to know enough to stir up trouble. Once Rhaegar heard the squires story, he knew enough to cause trouble (if that's what the roses were about).

I do think Rhaegar might have take advantage of the whole situation, but more in a ad hoc manner. By complete chance (at least from his POV) he found Lyanna and then he wanted to make the best of it. But Lyanna like Arya had agenda on her own and was not planning to just stay there and be a good hostage. So not like Bealish who planned the whole thing. And no cooperation with Tywin. I just thing that the opposite wouldn't make much sense considering the mystery GRRM is building. That is that Rhaegar had nefarious agenda from the start.
But I am more leaning towards the idea that Rhaegar not only never touched Lyanna but also just wanted to return her to safety. But then stuff happend. Like you said with Beric and Yoren.

I don't believe that Rhaegar was plotting the whole rebellion with Tywin or anyone for that matter. Because if he was behind it, if he is guilty then 'there was honor in that conquest' and that rebellion was black and white. Rhaegar started it and Aerys put in on flames. We are told in the beginning that Rhaegar caused the rebellion with the whole Lyanna thing. So if it turns out that some variation of mainstream story really happend, there was no mystery there (minus the Tywin cooperation part, but that would just be a detail).

Last Edit: Oct 11, 2017 23:08:14 GMT by LadyDarry

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How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight Feb 6, 2018 3:16:19 GMT voice, Wraith, and 1 more like this

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Post by SlyWren on Feb 6, 2018 3:16:19 GMT

Re reading Dunk&Egg made me see TOJ encounter in Dunk, Egg, Ser Eustace Osgrey going against Lady Rohanne Webber and her men after that woods fire (Yes, she has 33 men, but it is noted that she has dozen knights with her). At one point they wanted to fight in a tower. Because it would make more sense from tactical point of view to defend their position from a tower. Which is exactly what so many people are saying about TOJ. Why didn't kingsguard defend their postion from the tower. Maybe Dunk, a stand in for Arthur in that situation showed us why? And when Dunk, Egg and Ser Osgrey met Lady Webber it is evident that the whole fire thing was an misunderstanding and that both teams are innocent and no one set fire to the woods. We even have the whole thing ending with a battle in a river, where a guy who thinks he is entitled to a wedding with a lady in question doesn't know that this lady actually loves his opponent. I couldn't stop thinking about TOJ when reading all that. But maybe I am just looking too hard for TOJ echoes

1. Very sorry for the massive delay--a family crisis struck and made forum play time a luxury I could not afford.

2. This is an amazing catch! voice Weasel Pie and anyone else with tower-of-joy-issues--have you see this?

3. I re-read it myself and a few things struck me--though I may also have been infected by your toj echo-headphones:

Standfast is a much better tower--and there are still worried about fighting inside it. Though they are much more worried about fighting outside of it.

Then--the noble Duncan with the Falling Star on his shield (hello Daynes!) insists that the best move is to meet and make terms.

Leave the tower they actually want to defend and go to a more neutral location.

And, as you say, ending in a battle in a river.

Martin wrote this YEARS after that SSM where he warned his questioner that our dream aren't literal--the same questioner who goes on about Lyanna's being in the tower. Martin knew full well that reader were assuming things about that tower fight And he doused the Dunk and Egg tales with Dayne/falling star imagery.

Maybe we are both afflicted with a fatal misreading disease--but I think you are dead on about this.

Well done!

I do think Rhaegar might have take advantage of the whole situation, but more in a ad hoc manner. By complete chance (at least from his POV) he found Lyanna and then he wanted to make the best of it. But Lyanna like Arya had agenda on her own and was not planning to just stay there and be a good hostage. So not like Bealish who planned the whole thing. And no cooperation with Tywin. I just thing that the opposite wouldn't make much sense considering the mystery GRRM is building. That is that Rhaegar had nefarious agenda from the start.
But I am more leaning towards the idea that Rhaegar not only never touched Lyanna but also just wanted to return her to safety. But then stuff happend. Like you said with Beric and Yoren.

Yes--that's where my bird brain is at for now, too. It fits really, really well with what Martin shows us--not just with Arya, but also with Jon and how he ends up with Mance (full of Rhaegar imagery).

Plus even with Baelish--no way Baelish could know Sansa would absolutely come south with Ned. That Sansa would be Cat 2.0. Etc. Baelish was stirring up trouble--even getting Sansa was not the original plan, but a kid of opportune windfall.

I don't believe that Rhaegar was plotting the whole rebellion with Tywin or anyone for that matter. Because if he was behind it, if he is guilty then 'there was honor in that conquest' and that rebellion was black and white. Rhaegar started it and Aerys put in on flames. We are told in the beginning that Rhaegar caused the rebellion with the whole Lyanna thing. So if it turns out that some variation of mainstream story really happend, there was no mystery there (minus the Tywin cooperation part, but that would just be a detail).

Maybe--but we know for a fact that Rhaegar was right there at Duskendale when Tywin said that bit about, "even if we can't save the king, we have a great king right here"--and pointed at Rhaegar.

And no indication in the World Book that Rhaegar looked aghast and said, "No! Not Daddy! You can't let my daddy die!"

So, seems like the World Book is telling us flat out--Rhaegar was willing to use someone else's fire to get rid of Devil Daddy and claim the throne for himself.

Plus--Rhaegar did sit the war out and let the country burn.

That said--If Rhaegar balked at Tywin's plan (possible Jon Arryn's plan as well) and Tywin forced his hand--might be a middle ground: not entirely Rhaegar's fault, but Rhaegar ain't pure and clean.

Maybe.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight Feb 6, 2018 21:40:59 GMT SlyWren, Wraith, and 1 more like this

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Post by shymaid on Feb 6, 2018 21:40:59 GMT

Maybe--but we know for a fact that Rhaegar was right there at Duskendale when Tywin said that bit about, "even if we can't save the king, we have a great king right here"--and pointed at Rhaegar.

And no indication in the World Book that Rhaegar looked aghast and said, "No! Not Daddy! You can't let my daddy die!"

So, seems like the World Book is telling us flat out--Rhaegar was willing to use someone else's fire to get rid of Devil Daddy and claim the throne for himself.

Just my 2 cent on this. Remember that the World book is written by a would-be court historian, based on accounts from Maesters that can't be trusted to be neutral. In particular this period where much information would be given by Tywin's disciple Pycelle. The book is also meant for Robert who killed Rhaegar, and then his sons. Having the right version of history is important in these instances. I think it's wise to take this with a healthy dose of salt!

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How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight Feb 14, 2018 17:30:29 GMT via mobile SlyWren, Wraith, and 1 more like this

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Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 14, 2018 17:30:29 GMT

We also know that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped until quite a bit after the tourney, but that she was taken from somewhere closeby to Harrenhal, if you take that sentence in the World Book as canon. I feel like it falls into the realm of common knowledge of the time, as in, no one would believe she was taken near Harrenhal if she weren't known to have been staying at Harrenhal after the tourney ended. So my main question that I still haven't seen a good theory on is why in the world did she stay near Harrenhal after the tourney ended and the rest of her family returned home?

But let's assume Lyanna stayed at Harrenhal. Blount is a Crownlands house, and we know Rhaegar has some pull in the Crownlands as he comes home and rallies the Crownlands armies before the Trident. We don't know how many had already mustered for Aerys before that. But Tywin has a forgiveness for Boros in the story that is very un-Tywin like, and Boros is especially eager to beat Sansa the Stark maiden.

Haigh is a Riverland house and Frey vassal that has married into House Frey, safe to say the ties between those two houses is strong. Frey is a known plotter against the Starks with Tywin's help later with the Red Wedding. Maybe they have some history in treachery together?

Conveniently, it's also the Lannister and Frey forces and Rhaegar and his Crownlands (which is most egregious of all IMO) supporters that sit out the majority of the rebellion. There is no way this is a coincidence right? Genna is a Frey (was she at the time?), Lyanna could've been taken there the way Tyrion was taken to Cat's sisters house for safekeeping. But Tywin wasn't at Harrenhal, it would've taken time for him to get word, figure out how to use the info, and get a plan in motion. It's also incredibly Tywin-esque for all parties involved to not be connected to him, which these houses are not.

If Tywin is also behind the Kingswood Brotherhood, we could tie in the attack on Elia to him, which would mean Tywin is attempting to take out both brides of both potential kings (if you think Robert was Jon Arryn's choice before the rebellion even started as I have theorized) of both sides he's playing against eachother in this 281-282 time period. I think this is EXACTLY what Tywin would do, and it perfectly explains why he has his army waiting to attack King's Landing. I've always wondered how he got word of the Trident, called his banners, and still beat Eddard to King's Landing when it's twice as far away. He HAD to have his army already waiting nearby. So whether Robert or Rhaegar wins at the Trident, Tywin takes King's Landing and deposes Aerys exactly as he did. Both wives are out of the picture and Cersei is free to marry whichever man wins at the Trident.

I think I am officially declaring this one solved, boys and girls. Very well done!

Last Edit: Feb 14, 2018 17:35:04 GMT by kinglittlefinger

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How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight Feb 16, 2018 21:41:48 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Feb 16, 2018 21:41:48 GMT

Feb 16, 2018 16:49:46 GMT shymaid said:

Just my 2 cent on this. Remember that the World book is written by a would-be court historian, based on accounts from Maesters that can't be trusted to be neutral. In particular this period where much information would be given by Tywin's disciple Pycelle. The book is also meant for Robert who killed Rhaegar, and then his sons. Having the right version of history is important in these instances. I think it's wise to take this with a healthy dose of salt!

True--but Tywin was Robert's ally (at least in Robert's mind) when the book was being written.

So, Rhaegar's supporting Tywin's plan via silent assent doesn't seem particularly damning.

Throw in the amount of detail we get on Duskendale in the World Book, and the amount of time Martin had Brienne wander around Duckendale while looking for a Stark Maid in Feast--thinking that we really are supposed to see the Defiance as a hint for what happened in the Rebellion.

We also know that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped until quite a bit after the tourney, but that she was taken from somewhere closeby to Harrenhal, if you take that sentence in the World Book as canon. I feel like it falls into the realm of common knowledge of the time, as in, no one would believe she was taken near Harrenhal if she weren't known to have been staying at Harrenhal after the tourney ended. So my main question that I still haven't seen a good theory on is why in the world did she stay near Harrenhal after the tourney ended and the rest of her family returned home?

Or--just as Ned and family were traveling through the Riverlands, travel in that area is often not too far from Harrenhal.

Am also wondering if, since she disappeared int eh general vicinity, people associated it with Harrenhal because of the tourney.

One way or another--we don't know if she was staying or traveling. Not yet.

But let's assume Lyanna stayed at Harrenhal. Blount is a Crownlands house, and we know Rhaegar has some pull in the Crownlands as he comes home and rallies the Crownlands armies before the Trident. We don't know how many had already mustered for Aerys before that. But Tywin has a forgiveness for Boros in the story that is very un-Tywin like, and Boros is especially eager to beat Sansa the Stark maiden.

Haigh is a Riverland house and Frey vassal that has married into House Frey, safe to say the ties between those two houses is strong. Frey is a known plotter against the Starks with Tywin's help later with the Red Wedding. Maybe they have some history in treachery together?

Conveniently, it's also the Lannister and Frey forces and Rhaegar and his Crownlands (which is most egregious of all IMO) supporters that sit out the majority of the rebellion. There is no way this is a coincidence right? Genna is a Frey (was she at the time?), Lyanna could've been taken there the way Tyrion was taken to Cat's sisters house for safekeeping. But Tywin wasn't at Harrenhal, it would've taken time for him to get word, figure out how to use the info, and get a plan in motion. It's also incredibly Tywin-esque for all parties involved to not be connected to him, which these houses are not

Agreed--though, if Lyanna was taken while traveling, Tywin's ability to get info around greatly improves.

If Tywin is also behind the Kingswood Brotherhood, we could tie in the attack on Elia to him, which would mean Tywin is attempting to take out both brides of both potential kings (if you think Robert was Jon Arryn's choice before the rebellion even started as I have theorized) of both sides he's playing against eachother in this 281-282 time period. I think this is EXACTLY what Tywin would do, and it perfectly explains why he has his army waiting to attack King's Landing.

Amen! The attack on Elia comes up multiple times in the novels. Same with the Brotherhood--gotta be a reason why all that matters. Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen to a king he (Tywin) could influence. Getting rid of Elia would have helped that happens.

I've always wondered how he got word of the Trident, called his banners, and still beat Eddard to King's Landing when it's twice as far away. He HAD to have his army already waiting nearby.

So whether Robert or Rhaegar wins at the Trident, Tywin takes King's Landing and deposes Aerys exactly as he did. Both wives are out of the picture and Cersei is free to marry whichever man wins at the Trident.

Makes me think the plan really was to kill Lyanna--but that she ran. Might have been to take and hold her just in case, but I'm thinking there's a good chance they meant to leave her raped and murdered body for Robert to find.

I think I am officially declaring this one solved, boys and girls. Very well done!

Amen!

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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How Tywin Took Lyanna with the Porcupine Knight Feb 18, 2018 6:22:13 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Feb 18, 2018 6:22:13 GMT