Eww, Dany being Aerys' is not as appealing, lol. Though I do think it's as speculative-ly possible as Rhaegar being her baby-daddy.
Agreed. Though I do Dany's focus on Rhaegar and her looking like Ashara are win the books for a reason.
I personally, and being crowned in tinfoil at this moment, think it more likely that Jon Snow is the Blackfyre.
I'm lost in our collectively constructed tinfoil forest--who would Jon's father be then? Or are you thinking of his mother.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Eww, Dany being Aerys' is not as appealing, lol. Though I do think it's as speculative-ly possible as Rhaegar being her baby-daddy.
Agreed. Though I do Dany's focus on Rhaegar and her looking like Ashara are win the books for a reason.
I personally, and being crowned in tinfoil at this moment, think it more likely that Jon Snow is the Blackfyre.
I'm lost in our collectively constructed tinfoil forest--who would Jon's father be then? Or are you thinking of his mother.
Sly Wren, I literally had my head wrapped in tinfoil, as I was at the salon, lol! I don't actually remember what I was thinking , but my breadcrumb trail leads me thus: isn't any Targaryens Bastard a Blackfyre possibly? So if Ayres, for example, were Jon's father-by-rape, might he be a Blackfyre? Same as Dany? Somehow, I think I'm turned about wrong, and I don't know where. I know there were Targaryens who were Bastards, and Great Bastards, and Blackfyres. Didn't the Blackfyre Bastards self-name?
Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 3, 2017 1:20:21 GMT
Alright. I want Tywin to be responsible for Lyanna's kidnapping so badly because it ties up a bunch of loose threads, so I'm trying to work this all out. First of all, a Lannister father kidnapping a Stark daughter using Freys by invoking the name of the crown is an inverse parallel of a Stark mother kidnapping a Lannister son using Freys by invoking the name of the crown. Bonus points if both happened at the Inn at the Crossroads (though I doubt Tywin would be present as Catelyn was).
But this part of the OP doesn't really make sense IMO.
2. Rhaegar likely knew, as did his mentor Tywin, that planning for multiple contingencies ensured to the best outcome. Like Tywin, he sat out most of the war. If Rhaegar won, he’d be the Trident-winning, Lyanna-rescuing hero. He’d depose his father and make peace with the north.
3. If Aerys lost, Rhaegar could swoop in as the anti-Aerys, Lyanna-rescuing hero and still potentially broker peace. Placing all the blame on Aerys for killing Brandon and Rickard.
If Tywin takes Lyanna, surely he can't tell Rhaegar he has her right? Because Tywin would basically be admitting that he just got Rhaegar blamed to start a war. Further, if Rhaegar intended to sit out the war and swoop in last minute to save the day, why did he decide to join in before Aerys loses? Why come in early and lead an army to the Trident? If he wins, the losing half of the realm probably hates him more now than they used to and the winning half is wondering what the fuck he's been doing all this time they've been fighting his war. And if he loses, he's dead.
So here's what I think:
Tywin was done with the Targaryens after Jaime's investiture. It's the last straw for him. He sees the Southron Ambitions alliance, knows Robert is the figurehead, but would need Lyanna out of the picture for Cersei to become queen should he choose that side. If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt, he can have her turn up dead and no one be the wiser by the time the war ends, and Brandon is alerted. But Lyanna escapes. Once Rickard and Brandon are killed (mirroring Ned) the crown (mirroring the Lannisters) is believed to have Lyanna but really doesn't (mirroring Arya) and Robert's rebellion breaks out (mirroring Robb's rebellion). In the chaos, Lyanna runs into Rhaegar and his half-dozen companions (mirroring the Brotherhood without Banners) who tells her they will take her to her family, except they're in enemy territory and they have their own mission they set out on, plus war is raging around them and there is a ransom out for Lyanna (Arya).
That's how I'm starting to see it, now, let me venture into more speculative territory. Running with the Rhaegar and Elia turned to Ashara because "there must be one more" idea, Rhaegar and his half dozen companions leave Dragonstone with an entirely different mission than kidnapping Lyanna. It's Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Llewyn Martell, Ashara Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, and Myles Mooten, and they need to visit the Ghost of High Heart a.k.a. Jenny's woods witch that Rhaegar knows from his many Summerhall trips (as argued in part IV of my Harrenhal Conspiracy) who is now at High Heart. For anyone who believes Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, as I do, this provides a direct link between the Brotherhood without Banners and how they know about this woods witch at High Heart (who, LOLguesswut, Arya ALSO meets, and the witch is quick to call her out). They stumble on Lyanna, take her with them to the witch, and then continue south to Starfall where both women are to be kept safe until the war ends.
I like that chain of events. I was REALLY trying to find a way to get Arthur (mirroring Jon) and two other white cloaks (mirroring black cloaks) in a situation where Lyanna is a prisoner (mirroring Ygritte) and told to kill her but he couldn't go through with it. But I couldn't find a way to make that work lol.
Alright. I want Tywin to be responsible for Lyanna's kidnapping so badly because it ties up a bunch of loose threads, so I'm trying to work this all out. First of all, a Lannister father kidnapping a Stark daughter using Freys by invoking the name of the crown is an inverse parallel of a Stark mother kidnapping a Lannister son using Freys by invoking the name of the crown. Bonus points if both happened at the Inn at the Crossroads (though I doubt Tywin would be present as Catelyn was).
But this part of the OP doesn't really make sense IMO.
2. Rhaegar likely knew, as did his mentor Tywin, that planning for multiple contingencies ensured to the best outcome. Like Tywin, he sat out most of the war. If Rhaegar won, he’d be the Trident-winning, Lyanna-rescuing hero. He’d depose his father and make peace with the north.
3. If Aerys lost, Rhaegar could swoop in as the anti-Aerys, Lyanna-rescuing hero and still potentially broker peace. Placing all the blame on Aerys for killing Brandon and Rickard.
If Tywin takes Lyanna, surely he can't tell Rhaegar he has her right? Because Tywin would basically be admitting that he just got Rhaegar blamed to start a war. Further, if Rhaegar intended to sit out the war and swoop in last minute to save the day, why did he decide to join in before Aerys loses? Why come in early and lead an army to the Trident? If he wins, the losing half of the realm probably hates him more now than they used to and the winning half is wondering what the fuck he's been doing all this time they've been fighting his war. And if he loses, he's dead.
So here's what I think:
Tywin was done with the Targaryens after Jaime's investiture. It's the last straw for him. He sees the Southron Ambitions alliance, knows Robert is the figurehead, but would need Lyanna out of the picture for Cersei to become queen should he choose that side. If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt, he can have her turn up dead and no one be the wiser by the time the war ends, and Brandon is alerted. But Lyanna escapes. Once Rickard and Brandon are killed (mirroring Ned) the crown (mirroring the Lannisters) is believed to have Lyanna but really doesn't (mirroring Arya) and Robert's rebellion breaks out (mirroring Robb's rebellion). In the chaos, Lyanna runs into Rhaegar and his half-dozen companions (mirroring the Brotherhood without Banners) who tells her they will take her to her family, except they're in enemy territory and they have their own mission they set out on, plus war is raging around them and there is a ransom out for Lyanna (Arya).
That's how I'm starting to see it, now, let me venture into more speculative territory. Running with the Rhaegar and Elia turned to Ashara because "there must be one more" idea, Rhaegar and his half dozen companions leave Dragonstone with an entirely different mission than kidnapping Lyanna. It's Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Llewyn Martell, Ashara Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, and Myles Mooten, and they need to visit the Ghost of High Heart a.k.a. Jenny's woods witch that Rhaegar knows from his many Summerhall trips (as argued in part IV of my Harrenhal Conspiracy) who is now at High Heart. For anyone who believes Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, as I do, this provides a direct link between the Brotherhood without Banners and how they know about this woods witch at High Heart (who, LOLguesswut, Arya ALSO meets, and the witch is quick to call her out). They stumble on Lyanna, take her with them to the witch, and then continue south to Starfall where both women are to be kept safe until the war ends.
I like that chain of events. I was REALLY trying to find a way to get Arthur (mirroring Jon) and two other white cloaks (mirroring black cloaks) in a situation where Lyanna is a prisoner (mirroring Ygritte) and told to kill her but he couldn't go through with it. But I couldn't find a way to make that work lol.
Still not sure how Tywin finds out Lyanna is then KotLT. Or cares.
Your thoughts on Aerys thinking it was Jaime then finding out it wasn't always made a great deal more sense to me.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Alright. I want Tywin to be responsible for Lyanna's kidnapping so badly because it ties up a bunch of loose threads, so I'm trying to work this all out. First of all, a Lannister father kidnapping a Stark daughter using Freys by invoking the name of the crown is an inverse parallel of a Stark mother kidnapping a Lannister son using Freys by invoking the name of the crown. Bonus points if both happened at the Inn at the Crossroads (though I doubt Tywin would be present as Catelyn was).
But this part of the OP doesn't really make sense IMO.
If Tywin takes Lyanna, surely he can't tell Rhaegar he has her right? Because Tywin would basically be admitting that he just got Rhaegar blamed to start a war. Further, if Rhaegar intended to sit out the war and swoop in last minute to save the day, why did he decide to join in before Aerys loses? Why come in early and lead an army to the Trident? If he wins, the losing half of the realm probably hates him more now than they used to and the winning half is wondering what the fuck he's been doing all this time they've been fighting his war. And if he loses, he's dead.
So here's what I think:
Tywin was done with the Targaryens after Jaime's investiture. It's the last straw for him. He sees the Southron Ambitions alliance, knows Robert is the figurehead, but would need Lyanna out of the picture for Cersei to become queen should he choose that side. If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt, he can have her turn up dead and no one be the wiser by the time the war ends, and Brandon is alerted. But Lyanna escapes. Once Rickard and Brandon are killed (mirroring Ned) the crown (mirroring the Lannisters) is believed to have Lyanna but really doesn't (mirroring Arya) and Robert's rebellion breaks out (mirroring Robb's rebellion). In the chaos, Lyanna runs into Rhaegar and his half-dozen companions (mirroring the Brotherhood without Banners) who tells her they will take her to her family, except they're in enemy territory and they have their own mission they set out on, plus war is raging around them and there is a ransom out for Lyanna (Arya).
That's how I'm starting to see it, now, let me venture into more speculative territory. Running with the Rhaegar and Elia turned to Ashara because "there must be one more" idea, Rhaegar and his half dozen companions leave Dragonstone with an entirely different mission than kidnapping Lyanna. It's Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Llewyn Martell, Ashara Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, and Myles Mooten, and they need to visit the Ghost of High Heart a.k.a. Jenny's woods witch that Rhaegar knows from his many Summerhall trips (as argued in part IV of my Harrenhal Conspiracy) who is now at High Heart. For anyone who believes Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, as I do, this provides a direct link between the Brotherhood without Banners and how they know about this woods witch at High Heart (who, LOLguesswut, Arya ALSO meets, and the witch is quick to call her out). They stumble on Lyanna, take her with them to the witch, and then continue south to Starfall where both women are to be kept safe until the war ends.
I like that chain of events. I was REALLY trying to find a way to get Arthur (mirroring Jon) and two other white cloaks (mirroring black cloaks) in a situation where Lyanna is a prisoner (mirroring Ygritte) and told to kill her but he couldn't go through with it. But I couldn't find a way to make that work lol.
Still not sure how Tywin finds out Lyanna is then KotLT. Or cares.
Your thoughts on Aerys thinking it was Jaime then finding out it wasn't always made a great deal more sense to me.
True, I guess Tywin or Aerys as the kidnapper it really doesn't matter does it?
If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt,
As Tywin was not at the Harrenhal tourney, I suggest he did not arrange the kidnap but got involved later in an opportunistic way.
Say, the 'shamed knights' searched and found Lyanna has she tried to escape harrenhal from the repercussions of the KotLT incident and then kept her prisoner; Tywin hears about this golden opportunity and arranges for Raeghar to find her (somehow) Thus setting him up for kidnap, rape etc becoming Ramsey in the eyes of Robert.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
If Tywin takes Lyanna, surely he can't tell Rhaegar he has her right? Because Tywin would basically be admitting that he just got Rhaegar blamed to start a war. Further, if Rhaegar intended to sit out the war and swoop in last minute to save the day, why did he decide to join in before Aerys loses? Why come in early and lead an army to the Trident? If he wins, the losing half of the realm probably hates him more now than they used to and the winning half is wondering what the fuck he's been doing all this time they've been fighting his war. And if he loses, he's dead.
All that depends on a few factors:
1. Just how conniving Rhaegar is.
2. How much Rhaegar and Tywin planned this in advance.
3. And whether or not Rhaegar intended to enter the war before Aerys' fall--or if he got pulled into it sooner than expected by Aerys' lovely "I'm holding your wife and kids hostage, Sonny Boy!" attempt at family unity.
If Rhaegar waits too long to enter the war, he runs the risk of being deposed along with Daddy Dearest. If he enters the war, he runs the risk of deadening. One way or another, it's a risk. So, just depends on which one he wanted to run.
Tywin doesn't innately have to tell Rhaegar much of anything--Lyanna goes missing, and there's very likely gonna be a mess. He could have told Rhaegar everything. Or could have told Rhaegar war was coming--and then counted on Rhaegar looking the other way. Or could have only communicate with Rhaegar after Lyanna went missing.
One way or another, I don't think it's an accident that Tywin, Rhaegar, and the Freys all avoided the war until a fairly opportune moment.
ywin was done with the Targaryens after Jaime's investiture. It's the last straw for him. He sees the Southron Ambitions alliance, knows Robert is the figurehead, but would need Lyanna out of the picture for Cersei to become queen should he choose that side. If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt, he can have her turn up dead and no one be the wiser by the time the war ends, and Brandon is alerted. But Lyanna escapes. Once Rickard and Brandon are killed (mirroring Ned) the crown (mirroring the Lannisters) is believed to have Lyanna but really doesn't (mirroring Arya) and Robert's rebellion breaks out (mirroring Robb's rebellion). In the chaos, Lyanna runs into Rhaegar and his half-dozen companions (mirroring the Brotherhood without Banners) who tells her they will take her to her family, except they're in enemy territory and they have their own mission they set out on, plus war is raging around them and there is a ransom out for Lyanna (Arya).
YUP! This is very similar to one of the scenarios we came up with upthread--or on the Westeros thread. This would work really well.
And it even might mirror people thinking Arya is dead--the idiots who tried to take Lyanna might have said, "Oh, yeah, Boss--we like totally killed that girl."
I like that chain of events. I was REALLY trying to find a way to get Arthur (mirroring Jon) and two other white cloaks (mirroring black cloaks) in a situation where Lyanna is a prisoner (mirroring Ygritte) and told to kill her but he couldn't go through with it. But I couldn't find a way to make that work lol.
Well, one way or another, Arthur could have developed sympathy for Lyanna--Ned's esteem for Arthur and regret over him has to have some basis. So, there's still at least a few commands Arthur may have disobeyed.
And it may even mirror Harwin's chasing down Arya--she thinks she can trust him, but he insists on serving Beric. Something tells me Lyanna would have tried to escape.
Still not sure how Tywin finds out Lyanna is then KotLT. Or cares.
Does he have to? Only has to know it's a Stark, right? Like Cersei--she's perfectly happy with the "wolf in hand" in the Riverlands. So, it wouldn't matter which Stark was the Knight or which one they caught--just so long as they caught one. 'We have a wolf."
Also makes me wonder if the Knight of the Laughing Tree's hidden identity is a misdirect--that identity might be less important than the identities, affiliations, and motives of the defeated knights.
Say, the 'shamed knights' searched and found Lyanna has she tried to escape harrenhal from the repercussions of the KotLT incident and then kept her prisoner; Tywin hears about this golden opportunity and arranges for Raeghar to find her (somehow) Thus setting him up for kidnap, rape etc becoming Ramsey in the eyes of Robert.
Could be--but a lot of moving parts. Blaming Rhaegar for the death/disappearance seems surer--unless he could be sure Rhaegar could "rescue" her. .. that was one of my initial suppositions. But I'm buying the "Lyanna ran like Arya" scenarios more and more.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Alright. I want Tywin to be responsible for Lyanna's kidnapping so badly because it ties up a bunch of loose threads, so I'm trying to work this all out. First of all, a Lannister father kidnapping a Stark daughter using Freys by invoking the name of the crown is an inverse parallel of a Stark mother kidnapping a Lannister son using Freys by invoking the name of the crown. Bonus points if both happened at the Inn at the Crossroads (though I doubt Tywin would be present as Catelyn was).
But this part of the OP doesn't really make sense IMO.
2. Rhaegar likely knew, as did his mentor Tywin, that planning for multiple contingencies ensured to the best outcome. Like Tywin, he sat out most of the war. If Rhaegar won, he’d be the Trident-winning, Lyanna-rescuing hero. He’d depose his father and make peace with the north.
3. If Aerys lost, Rhaegar could swoop in as the anti-Aerys, Lyanna-rescuing hero and still potentially broker peace. Placing all the blame on Aerys for killing Brandon and Rickard.
If Tywin takes Lyanna, surely he can't tell Rhaegar he has her right? Because Tywin would basically be admitting that he just got Rhaegar blamed to start a war. Further, if Rhaegar intended to sit out the war and swoop in last minute to save the day, why did he decide to join in before Aerys loses? Why come in early and lead an army to the Trident? If he wins, the losing half of the realm probably hates him more now than they used to and the winning half is wondering what the fuck he's been doing all this time they've been fighting his war. And if he loses, he's dead.
So here's what I think:
Tywin was done with the Targaryens after Jaime's investiture. It's the last straw for him. He sees the Southron Ambitions alliance, knows Robert is the figurehead, but would need Lyanna out of the picture for Cersei to become queen should he choose that side. If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt, he can have her turn up dead and no one be the wiser by the time the war ends, and Brandon is alerted. But Lyanna escapes. Once Rickard and Brandon are killed (mirroring Ned) the crown (mirroring the Lannisters) is believed to have Lyanna but really doesn't (mirroring Arya) and Robert's rebellion breaks out (mirroring Robb's rebellion). In the chaos, Lyanna runs into Rhaegar and his half-dozen companions (mirroring the Brotherhood without Banners) who tells her they will take her to her family, except they're in enemy territory and they have their own mission they set out on, plus war is raging around them and there is a ransom out for Lyanna (Arya).
That's how I'm starting to see it, now, let me venture into more speculative territory. Running with the Rhaegar and Elia turned to Ashara because "there must be one more" idea, Rhaegar and his half dozen companions leave Dragonstone with an entirely different mission than kidnapping Lyanna. It's Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Llewyn Martell, Ashara Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, and Myles Mooten, and they need to visit the Ghost of High Heart a.k.a. Jenny's woods witch that Rhaegar knows from his many Summerhall trips (as argued in part IV of my Harrenhal Conspiracy) who is now at High Heart. For anyone who believes Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, as I do, this provides a direct link between the Brotherhood without Banners and how they know about this woods witch at High Heart (who, LOLguesswut, Arya ALSO meets, and the witch is quick to call her out). They stumble on Lyanna, take her with them to the witch, and then continue south to Starfall where both women are to be kept safe until the war ends.
I like that chain of events. I was REALLY trying to find a way to get Arthur (mirroring Jon) and two other white cloaks (mirroring black cloaks) in a situation where Lyanna is a prisoner (mirroring Ygritte) and told to kill her but he couldn't go through with it. But I couldn't find a way to make that work lol.
I keep coming back to these parallels. I have a feeling we can deduce the entire story of Lyanna through parallels from the main series and side novellas. And something hit me in the kidnappings. The Stark mother takes the Lannister son to her sister's castle for safe-keeping. Is there evidence that the Lannister father took the Stark daughter to his brother's castle for safe keeping?
I don't have the exact quote but Kevan actually describes Lyanna as he remembers her and said she didn't compare to Cersei's beauty. Am I reaching to assume that Kevan, like Tywin, wasn't at the Tourney at Harrenhal, and thus probably would never have seen Lyanna unless she WERE taken to his castle for safe keeping at some point?
Is that closer to a subtle hint or closer to an overlooked error on GRRMs part in your opinion? It's in the last chapter we have, the epilogue of ADWD, so it's not like GRRM is still figuring out where he's going with the story like he is in AGOT. What do you guys think? voicemarkg171
I keep coming back to these parallels. I have a feeling we can deduce the entire story of Lyanna through parallels from the main series and side novellas. And something hit me in the kidnappings. The Stark mother takes the Lannister son to her sister's castle for safe-keeping. Is there evidence that the Lannister father took the Stark daughter to his brother's castle for safe keeping?
1. I agree on the parallels. We may not be able to deduce everything, but the broad strokes are pretty tantalizing.
2. As for Lannisters--would it have to be a relative they turned to? Or just an ally?
I don't have the exact quote but Kevan actually describes Lyanna as he remembers her and said she didn't compare to Cersei's beauty.
Yup:
Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun. Dance, Epilogue
Am I reaching to assume that Kevan, like Tywin, wasn't at the Tourney at Harrenhal, and thus probably would never have seen Lyanna unless she WERE taken to his castle for safe keeping at some point?
This is an interesting hypothetical--we know the Lion of the Rock wasn't at Harrenhal, but I can't think of anything that says all Lannister skipped out.
And Meera tells Bran that:
The great lion of the rock had quarreled with the king and stayed away, but many of his bannermen and knights attended all the same. Storm, Bran II
Kevan is both knight and bannerman. . . . I think. So, if "many" attended, seems possible he was among the many.
So, seems like he really could have been at the tourney. But it isn't confirmed--or at least I couldn't find it.
All that said--the idea that the Lannisters did get Lyanna--as they got Sansa--has to be considered. If they did, they'd have to keep her somewhere.
I'm still leaning towards "Lyanna ran when they came after her--as Arya did--and ended up with people who looked after her, but still held her--as did Arya."
Still--if Kevan knew about the plans, why would he say "Rhaegar would never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark"? That line makes it sounds like Kevan really thinks Rhaegar took her, not Tywin.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Alright. I want Tywin to be responsible for Lyanna's kidnapping so badly because it ties up a bunch of loose threads, so I'm trying to work this all out. First of all, a Lannister father kidnapping a Stark daughter using Freys by invoking the name of the crown is an inverse parallel of a Stark mother kidnapping a Lannister son using Freys by invoking the name of the crown. Bonus points if both happened at the Inn at the Crossroads (though I doubt Tywin would be present as Catelyn was).
But this part of the OP doesn't really make sense IMO.
If Tywin takes Lyanna, surely he can't tell Rhaegar he has her right? Because Tywin would basically be admitting that he just got Rhaegar blamed to start a war. Further, if Rhaegar intended to sit out the war and swoop in last minute to save the day, why did he decide to join in before Aerys loses? Why come in early and lead an army to the Trident? If he wins, the losing half of the realm probably hates him more now than they used to and the winning half is wondering what the fuck he's been doing all this time they've been fighting his war. And if he loses, he's dead.
So here's what I think:
Tywin was done with the Targaryens after Jaime's investiture. It's the last straw for him. He sees the Southron Ambitions alliance, knows Robert is the figurehead, but would need Lyanna out of the picture for Cersei to become queen should he choose that side. If Tywin gets Blount et al to kidnap Lyanna in revenge for the KotLT stunt, he can have her turn up dead and no one be the wiser by the time the war ends, and Brandon is alerted. But Lyanna escapes. Once Rickard and Brandon are killed (mirroring Ned) the crown (mirroring the Lannisters) is believed to have Lyanna but really doesn't (mirroring Arya) and Robert's rebellion breaks out (mirroring Robb's rebellion). In the chaos, Lyanna runs into Rhaegar and his half-dozen companions (mirroring the Brotherhood without Banners) who tells her they will take her to her family, except they're in enemy territory and they have their own mission they set out on, plus war is raging around them and there is a ransom out for Lyanna (Arya).
That's how I'm starting to see it, now, let me venture into more speculative territory. Running with the Rhaegar and Elia turned to Ashara because "there must be one more" idea, Rhaegar and his half dozen companions leave Dragonstone with an entirely different mission than kidnapping Lyanna. It's Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Llewyn Martell, Ashara Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, and Myles Mooten, and they need to visit the Ghost of High Heart a.k.a. Jenny's woods witch that Rhaegar knows from his many Summerhall trips (as argued in part IV of my Harrenhal Conspiracy) who is now at High Heart. For anyone who believes Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, as I do, this provides a direct link between the Brotherhood without Banners and how they know about this woods witch at High Heart (who, LOLguesswut, Arya ALSO meets, and the witch is quick to call her out). They stumble on Lyanna, take her with them to the witch, and then continue south to Starfall where both women are to be kept safe until the war ends.
I like that chain of events. I was REALLY trying to find a way to get Arthur (mirroring Jon) and two other white cloaks (mirroring black cloaks) in a situation where Lyanna is a prisoner (mirroring Ygritte) and told to kill her but he couldn't go through with it. But I couldn't find a way to make that work lol.
I keep coming back to these parallels. I have a feeling we can deduce the entire story of Lyanna through parallels from the main series and side novellas. And something hit me in the kidnappings. The Stark mother takes the Lannister son to her sister's castle for safe-keeping. Is there evidence that the Lannister father took the Stark daughter to his brother's castle for safe keeping?
I don't have the exact quote but Kevan actually describes Lyanna as he remembers her and said she didn't compare to Cersei's beauty. Am I reaching to assume that Kevan, like Tywin, wasn't at the Tourney at Harrenhal, and thus probably would never have seen Lyanna unless she WERE taken to his castle for safe keeping at some point?
Is that closer to a subtle hint or closer to an overlooked error on GRRMs part in your opinion? It's in the last chapter we have, the epilogue of ADWD, so it's not like GRRM is still figuring out where he's going with the story like he is in AGOT. What do you guys think? voicemarkg171
Hells yes! Brilliant catch!
That's miles closer to a subtle hint than an error, imo. I've long held that Tywin and Rhaegar were allies throughout Jon Arryn's rebellion (it was never "Robert's", until he was crowned), but I've never had direct canonical cause to associate Tywin with Lyanna at all, let alone her disappearance... in spite of the truly compelling and wonderful parallels SlyWren and @melisandre have put forth over the years.
This seemingly minor detail completely bridges that gap, and erases my previously held reservations.
How would Kevan have an educated opinion of Lyanna's beauty at/around the age of her flowering, in order to compare it to Cersei's beauty at the age of hers?
Coincidentally, this period of time coincides with the period of time when Lyanna was missing and rumored to have been abducted (per the timeline of Brandon's doomed trip to KL).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by kinglittlefinger on Aug 18, 2017 21:39:27 GMT
SlyWren Good points RE: Lannister bannermen still attending the tournament and Kevan believing Rhaegar took Lyanna. I guess Rhaegar looking twice at her could just mean Kevan believes the typical story that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but that kind of comes with the caveat that people believe that because they assume Rhaegar is the one that took her. So for Kevan to believe he took her would assume that Tywin didn't. At least to his knowledge.
So I was probably reaching some with that being a hint.
There's still just too much coincidence IMO that Tywin and his bannermen sit out the war, along with Rhaegar's group, and the Frey's and their bannermen, which covers the house sleighted by Aerys, all 3 of the houses sleighted by the KotLT, and the person that investigated the KotLT and stands to benefit from Aerys being deposed.
I keep coming back to these parallels. I have a feeling we can deduce the entire story of Lyanna through parallels from the main series and side novellas. And something hit me in the kidnappings. The Stark mother takes the Lannister son to her sister's castle for safe-keeping. Is there evidence that the Lannister father took the Stark daughter to his brother's castle for safe keeping?
I don't have the exact quote but Kevan actually describes Lyanna as he remembers her and said she didn't compare to Cersei's beauty. Am I reaching to assume that Kevan, like Tywin, wasn't at the Tourney at Harrenhal, and thus probably would never have seen Lyanna unless she WERE taken to his castle for safe keeping at some point?
Is that closer to a subtle hint or closer to an overlooked error on GRRMs part in your opinion? It's in the last chapter we have, the epilogue of ADWD, so it's not like GRRM is still figuring out where he's going with the story like he is in AGOT. What do you guys think? voicemarkg171
Hells yes! Brilliant catch!
That's miles closer to a subtle hint than an error, imo. I've long held that Tywin and Rhaegar were allies throughout Jon Arryn's rebellion (it was never "Robert's", until he was crowned), but I've never had direct canonical cause to associate Tywin with Lyanna at all, let alone her disappearance... in spite of the truly compelling and wonderful parallels SlyWren and @melisandre have put forth over the years.
This seemingly minor detail completely bridges that gap, and erases my previously held reservations.
How would Kevan have an educated opinion of Lyanna's beauty at/around the age of her flowering, in order to compare it to Cersei's beauty at the age of hers?
Coincidentally, this period of time coincides with the period of time when Lyanna was missing and rumored to have been abducted (per the timeline of Brandon's doomed trip to KL).
How would Kevan have an educated opinion of Lyanna's beauty at/around the age of her flowering, in order to compare it to Cersei's beauty at the age of hers?
Coincidentally, this period of time coincides with the period of time when Lyanna was missing and rumored to have been abducted (per the timeline of Brandon's doomed trip to KL).
There's still just too much coincidence IMO that Tywin and his bannermen sit out the war, along with Rhaegar's group, and the Frey's and their bannermen, which covers the house sleighted by Aerys, all 3 of the houses sleighted by the KotLT, and the person that investigated the KotLT and stands to benefit from Aerys being deposed.
For a while, I've been wondering if the Knight of the Laughing Tree's identity is a misdirect--Bran wants to know the identity.
So do readers--that's the whole point of a mystery knight in a story--who are they and what do they want?
But if the key points are less "who was it" than "how did people react to it and who else was there and why"--a mystery knight's a good misdirect.
Maybe.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.