OK, I really need to ask, what is this obsession of Westerners to be so grossed out by incest? I just find it sooooo funny! I find it mentally wrong but I do not get grossed out. But people make these comments that puts incest in the same bin as rape, torture, and murder and I really am like... whaaat?!
Like voice, i do not think it is only a western culture view.
incest between adults and children is rape. I can't see how else it can be described.
incest between closely related adults -consanguinity, inbreeding - leads to genetic malformations in off-springs. Not desirable at all. In our story, the mad Targaryan kings and Joffrey are prime examples.
this article points out what happens in a culture which favours marriage between cousins.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Considering how much the published novels mirror the outline, I think a complete disregard is a tad bit extreme, but I respect your position.
Oh, I a not in Jon+Arya camp. I was just saying that a lot of people find clues that they interpret as romantic between the characters and the romance they saw came from Lyanna+Brandon, not the kids themselves.
I am surprised by your position though, because inthe 1993 letter, GRRM states quite clearly that the mystery of Jon's parentage was inserted for the sole purpose of creating a means by which Jon and Arya might resolve and justify their passions for each other. If you favor a Jon+Arya romance, the letter is on your side.
I think her username is "thefattestleech" on W. She commented on many threads with the info I provided in my prev post. I wasn't taking sides really, just repeating what she said (she also has the recording of the session and while I have not heard it, many have and confirmed the content).
While I am a westerner, I am fairly well-traveled and familiar with many other worldviews
Was my tone offensive? If I were I do apologize. I did not mean to imply otherwise at all. I asked you precisely because I find you educated, informed, and open minded.
I just find people on W (modern Westerners) mostly that have a strong emotional reaction to incest. While I am not pro incest at all, nor is my culture at this point in time (thanks Gods old and new), I still do not have an emotional response to it. If you tell me of current time cousins that are married, my first reaction is not "Ewww", more like "Hmm, has the match been genetically tested?". So while it is undesirable for me, it is not a taboo.
Thanks for the rest of the post though, it was very informative.
While I recall GRRM saying something to that effect as well, I still think the reason he required a 5-year gap was to age his characters and dragons. In place of it, he has given us the gift of the Meereenese Knot and the adventures of Brienne and Pod.
He is using Arya's sexuality in Mercy chapter quite heavily, so it really seems like he is going to treat them as older, whether or not they really are. Somewhat like Dany. When she marries Drogo, she is REALLY young (not as young as Arya, but pretty close) and he still has the most detailed sexual contents in her chapters (even early ones). Honestly I didn't mind the Meereenese Knot, I generally enjoy the Essos politics stuff, it is Dany acting as a political figure that is really boring to read. If she takes yet another bath while the whole region is burning because of her... I won't do anything, just pile up the hate.
Like voice, i do not think it is only a western culture view.
incest between adults and children is rape. I can't see how else it can be described.
incest between closely related adults -consanguinity, inbreeding - leads to genetic malformations in off-springs. Not desirable at all. In our story, the mad Targaryan kings and Joffrey are prime examples.
this article points out what happens in a culture which favours marriage between cousins.
Oh, it is not (nor has it been) limited to Western society. My point (which might have been very poorly worded) was that I find modern Westerners to have a kind of emotional reaction to it that makes it a current day taboo. And that surprises me, as it is not a taboo for me, just something undesirable because of mainly genetics. I am not pro incest, nor is my culture (today), and am aware of the biological and societal effects of incest. Thanks for the link though, it is so interesting
Like voice, i do not think it is only a western culture view.
incest between adults and children is rape. I can't see how else it can be described.
incest between closely related adults -consanguinity, inbreeding - leads to genetic malformations in off-springs. Not desirable at all. In our story, the mad Targaryan kings and Joffrey are prime examples.
this article points out what happens in a culture which favours marriage between cousins.
Oh, it is not (nor has it been) limited to Western society. My point (which might have been very poorly worded) was that I find modern Westerners to have a kind of emotional reaction to it that makes it a current day taboo. And that surprises me, as it is not a taboo for me, just something undesirable because of mainly genetics. I am not pro incest, nor is my culture (today), and am aware of the biological and societal effects of incest. Thanks for the link though, it is so interesting
I've actually been thinking about your point off and on since I read it earlier. I think that the reason that you see such a strong reaction is because that it is, in fact, considered socially taboo in a lot of these cultures. At least in the area of the US that I'm from it would not have a positive connotation at all. Actually, it's something that culturally has become somewhat of a joke or insult to refer to those of lesser intelligence or from a more backwards/less progressive or rural area as being inbred. If I step back to look at it it's almost like culture has created or attached a stigma to it due to the fact that it can result in these genetic anomalies. Culturally it's almost become a way of saying that the group of people isn't as technologically or culturally advanced.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I've actually been thinking about your point off and on since I read it earlier. I think that the reason that you see such a strong reaction is because that it is, in fact, considered socially taboo in a lot of these cultures. At least in the area of the US that I'm from it would not have a positive connotation at all. Actually, it's something that culturally has become somewhat of a joke or insult to refer to those of lesser intelligence or from a more backwards/less progressive or rural area as being inbred. If I step back to look at it it's almost like culture has created or attached a stigma to it due to the fact that it can result in these genetic anomalies. Culturally it's almost become a way of saying that the group of people isn't as technologically or culturally advanced.
Yeah, I think so too. I think my confusion came from the fact that I do not find it immoral on a case by case basis, but only if it becomes prevalent in a society or leads to a genetically deficient child. So, the act itself does not associate with any particular emotions in me, one way or the other. But I understand now that if we look at the rate of genetic disorders as the result of inbreeding, it can be considered immoral to even attempt it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping it doesn't come to pass, and at first glance, it seems VERY crackpot.
OK, I really need to ask, what is this obsession of Westerners to be so grossed out by incest? I just find it sooooo funny! I find it mentally wrong but I do not get grossed out. But people make these comments that puts incest in the same bin as rape, torture, and murder and I really am like... whaaat?!
Genesis 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
The older daughter conceived Moab (Hebrew מוֹאָב, lit., "from the father" [meh-Av]), father of the Moabites;[v.37] the younger conceived Ben-Ammi (Hebrew בֶּן-עַמִּי, lit., "Son of my people"), father of the Ammonites.
I am no viper, yet I feed On mother's flesh which did me breed. I sought a husband, in which labour I found that kindness in a father: He's father, son, and husband mild; I mother, wife, and yet his child. How they may be, and yet in two, As you will live, resolve it you. Sharp physic is the last: but, O you powers That give heaven countless eyes to view men's acts, Why cloud they not their sights perpetually, If this be true, which makes me pale to read it? Fair glass of light, I loved you, and could still,
Takes hold of the hand of the Daughter of ANTIOCHUS
Were not this glorious casket stored with ill: But I must tell you, now my thoughts revolt For he's no man on whom perfections wait That, knowing sin within, will touch the gate. You are a fair viol, and your sense the strings; Who, finger'd to make man his lawful music, Would draw heaven down, and all the gods, to hearken: But being play'd upon before your time, Hell only danceth at so harsh a chime. Good sooth, I care not for you.
Ned had no problem with Cersei nor her children and only moved against them at the end of AGOT because they had no rightful claim to the throne. Rather than considering them abominations (as Stannis does), he feared for their safety. This might prove to be a far closer parallel than is typically assumed.
Yes! This is exactly why, after deciding I didn't buy Rhaegar as the father, I originally thought that Ned and Lyanna were Jon's parents. Ned is not exactly forgiving when it comes to betrayals of sacred vows, so he has to have some sort of personal sympathy for incestuous behavior.
Meahwhile, Craster seems to provide draw strong connections with the old gods, "sacred" contracts, the Starks, and incestuous gene-farming. It really makes you wonder what happens to the Stark women; it would be quite easy for the old rulers of the North to make people effectively disappear without causing too much of a stir. (Theon and Jeyne Poole are notable modern examples of this.) Now I'm playing the idea that one of the reasons shit is currently going haywire is that Lyanna ran off and had her baby with an other man.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Yes! This is exactly why, after deciding I didn't buy Rhaegar as the father, I originally thought that Ned and Lyanna were Jon's parents. Ned is not exactly forgiving when it comes to betrayals of sacred vows, so he has to have some sort of personal sympathy for incestuous behavior.
Meahwhile, Craster seems to provide draw strong connections with the old gods, "sacred" contracts, the Starks, and incestuous gene-farming. It really makes you wonder what happens to the Stark women; it would be quite easy for the old rulers of the North to make people effectively disappear without causing too much of a stir. (Theon and Jeyne Poole are notable modern examples of this.) Now I'm playing the idea that one of the reasons shit is currently going haywire is that Lyanna ran off and had her baby with an other man.
I was thinking Lyanna+Benjen, but Lyanna+Ned might make a whole lot of (disturbing/parallel) sense.
If Lyanna ended up throwing the whole tradition off, with whom are you thinking she ran off?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I was thinking Lyanna+Benjen, but Lyanna+Ned might make a whole lot of (disturbing/parallel) sense.
If Lyanna ended up throwing the whole tradition off, with whom are you thinking she ran off?
I'm thinking she was rescued in some fashion by Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, and co. and logically decided to stick around with them. As for the kidnapping story, someone who wished to frame Rhaegar and start a civil war probably sent some guys to kill or capture Lyanna while both she and Rhaegar's posse were in the same general area. I'd guess Rhaegar's general objective was to get Lyanna to safety before the Targaryen regime suffered too much political damage from the incident.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
When looking at this angle, i also favour Benjen and Lyanna. This would somewhat explain Ned's 'personal sympathy for incestuous behavior.
It would also explain Benjen's remark:
On second thought, Benjen and Lyanna does seem like a more natural fit. It still explains Ned's tempered reaction to Cersei's and Jaime's crimes.
This route also offers the parallel between Jaime's and Benjen's betrayals of similar vows of celibacy, even though the latter's offense occurred before he took the black. As a younger son of a Stark lord, Benjen may have historically been designated for the Night's Watch essentially from birth. The ominous tone of Barbrey Dustin's criticism of Rickard Stark's "southron ambitions" gives me the feeling that Rickard and subsequent generations of Starks betrayed the trust of not only their banner men, but the old gods themselves.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 4, 2017 1:26:04 GMT
Just throwing this out there:
Jon - pledges his life to a brotherhood, is a becoming a really good swordsman, spends an entire book surrounded by mentions of dawn and stars, and the Sword of the Morning constellation. He parallels Arthur.
Arya - her father dies in King's Landing, she escapes capture around Harrenhal but is taken by a band of outlaws, evades the war in the Riverlands, has wolf blood. She parallels Lyanna.
In the original letter that GRRM sent to his editor in 1993, his synopsis ended in Jon and Arya falling in love after Jon learns his true parentage
For a long time, I was a believer in RLJ, but it never felt quite right. Nothing does, really, which is as indicator of the skill and misdirection of our author.
But so much of Jon ties to Ned, I almost can't see at this point how Ned isn't Jon's father.
I am currently of belief it is Ned and Lyanna. There are so many similarities between Ned and Jon sometimes I am shocked that I could have ever doubted Jon was Ned's actual son. Lyanna actually does not fit into Jon's story to a huge extent. The most obvious clue would be in Dany's vision of the blue flower growing from a chink in the wall, and that is in Dany's story, not Jon's, so I am a bit confused about that.
But what really draws me is the parallel's between the Stark and Lannister families, and I would not be at all surprised to see that the incestuous relationship between Jaime and Cersei that helped fan the flames of the current war, were not paralleled in a Stark incest story that fanned the flames of Robert's Rebellion. Plus, Ned is still seen as honorable (and I am not trying to say that incest is dishonorable in this world), kind, respected and pretty well viewed by readers and characters in the story, if not the best politician, and I think GRRM is certainly capable of stripping more of the "honor" away from Ned. I think Ned has a lot more grey in his character development than people want to see. And grey is a Stark color, so ...
It fit's the best for me for several reasons, although I like the idea's that involve the Daynes. I don't think Jon comes from the Targaryen line. He is of the north, he is ice, and was severely effected by his burnt hand.
My wild card is Ned and Cersei. There is something off about Ned and Cersei's interactions in this story. I would find it very interesting if Robert complaints to Ned, of all people, "Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt", Eddard VII-aGoT, led to us finding out that Ned had a far different relationship with Cersei at some point in our story. Maybe Cersei's cunt was cold after Ned put some "ice" there! Ned definitely has some hard feelings toward the Lannisters and we really don't know much of what was going on before or during the rebellion. And Jon was kept separate from the royal family at Winterfell for a reason. It's very tinfoil, but if anyone has any ideas on this theory, I would be interested. I'm almost willing to write it up myself, but I am pretty lazy. I base this on what parentage theory for Jon would personally hurt me the most, and this feels like someone stuck a knife in my eyeball!
Ned/Lyanna/incest seems easier to accept than Ned/Cersei/"icey" cunts!
Either theory explains why Neddard acts so constipated every time someone inquires into who Jonno's mother is!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.