Arthur Dayne Theory

Well that's the point if Arthur is supposed to be like the greatest swordsman ever with Dawn in hand. Mance nearly killed Jon in the very first pass, even while Jon was fully armoured, shielded, and expecting an attack.



If Mance is Arthur, then that's the perfect moment for Arthur to be lamenting that he didn't have Dawn as if he did the fight would've been over in a single blow as Dawn would've made him too fast for Jon to have intercepted that blow, and may even have cut him right in two from the speed and force of it. Which is what you'd expect from Arthur, given the hype surrounding his skill.

I mean, even if Mance isn't Arthur, that's still terrifying like you say that someone like him would've defeated Jon so utterly easily if he had a sword like Dawn or Heartsbane instead of a regular greatsword.

And one point i forgot. Well, more of a pondering really.

If SotM is an office of sorts, wouldn't it also include special information for the worthy eyes only? This would function a bit differently before writing came into use, of course.
Could be a reason for the close relationship between Rhaergar and Arthur, if/when the latter heard what was in those imfamous scrolls and it made sence in relation to what he himself had learned as SotM.
Also give a big incentive for going north to gather the wildlings, if he thought certain signs where in place. If Mance = Arthur is true.

Hmmm excellent point. I always thought of him as mostly a "tourney knight" who didn't hold up in the real war (a representation of Catelyn's "knights of summer"). And I was never sure if he won his two tourneys b/c he was that good, or b/c his own KG weren't likely to knock him off a horse. Ned spells this out for Robert very clearly in book 1: nobody would risk harming the king.
Then there is the red ruby dragon he wore, IIRC, on his armor both times he won. We know what rubies can do, especially red ones. The moment the ruby dragon breaks, the spell is over and Rhaegar dies.

HOWEVER, you are entirely correct that he wounded Robert, who was widely known as one of Westeros's strongest fighters, winning every melee he entered. That was no small feat. He also would have had the very best training, including possibly (probably) learning from SAD himself.

That being said, we are told that Rhaegar didn't love fighting, he did it b/c he read that he had to become a warrior. When "Mance" first swings the greatsword, he comments on the sweet sound of it slashing at the air, which not only shows an appreciation for swordplay but also again highlights his choice of weapon. Do we know if Rhaegar ever fought with a greatsword? In addition, while Mance does sing, nobody claims he is especially good, and he sings bawdy songs rather than sad ballads. In fact, there is nothing sad or melancholy about Mance at all; it seems he rather enjoys his life, has a clear purpose, and wants to do his part in the wars to come. Not to mention that Rhaegar would require a pretty major glamor to become a nondescript man of middling height with brown hair turning gray...



Wait- the NW LC during RR was Dornish??! And we also would have had a (somewhat younger) Maester Aemon up there ... very interesting! Lots of potential support for a Targ loyalist wanting to hide out (or, more likely, wanting to rally the troops for the Battle for the Dawn. SAD would never trade his honor for a few years of life at the Wall).

I guess that means BR had already disappeared by this time. This actually makes sense, as I can't imagine an LC Bloodraven sitting by while his entire family is wiped out.

I've always assumed the rubies told us that it wasn't really Rhaegar that Robert killed. It was a glamor and Robert actually killed Lyanna.

I keep asking, why did Mance fight Arthur. It seems that he wanted to get someone's attention. Maybe he was just letting Jon know that he is vulnerable. If Mance=SAD, maybe he wanted Jon to figure it out, naturally assuming that Ned would have told Jon that SAD lives and went to the Wall.

I'm an old man and my memory fails me sometimes. When did Arthur do this?

That Rhaegar story doesn't seem at all likely. A bookish kid takes no interest in combat training, then reads something in a book and suddenly becomes devoted to training, and is really good with arms. When he suddenly started to train, he would have to develop skills, reflexes, strength. As Tyrion pointed out to Jon, in a world where skill at arms is respected far more than learning, a kid turns to books if he doesn't have the raw materials to become a warrior -- if Rhaegar had a sudden "I'm going to become a warrior moment," it wasn't just because of something he read that inspired him.

Thanks. I had the feeling that it was something I should be remembering.
The story tells us a bit about SAD, not only his character and methods, but his authority. Apparently he had the power to expand grazing lands and to grant the right to fell trees and to hunt the king's deer. It seems that the Mad King trusted him a great deal.
I agree that it sounds rather like Jon's methods. One of the big questions that lurks in this story, is it better that the people love you or fear you? Ned Stark isn't the only one who finds fear to be inadequate as a strategy.

Yeah. That little anecdote just screams: "Notice me!"

I like it. It hadn't occurred to me but you are right that the big reveal of SAD would be most difficult. "You're SAD? RIIIIIGHT! And I'm the Night's King!"

I think Barristan's story must have a good deal of truth in it. He knows it first hand and (I think) has not motivation to lie about it. The part I don't buy is Baristan's explanation of the transition. I accept Rhaegar, the bookish boy with very limited interest in combat. I accept Rhaegar, the very competent fighter. I am baffled about the means of getting from one to the other. Those rubies might be a clue.

danl shymaid

I believe that the Elder Brother is actually Jonothor Darry. He is the only member of the KG who doesn't have a confirmed death at the Trident. Barristan is captured, Lewyn is cut down by Lyn Corbray, Rhaegar is killed by Robert (yes I think it was actually him.) Jon Darry is just reported dead. You would think however killed him would have made a big deal out of it like Lyn Corbray does.

Also I am mostly on board with the Mance as Arthur Dayne theory.

Also the seven rubies I believe where supposed to relate to Rheagar's close friends, but have nothing really to prove it.

Several names are given for close friends but never all seven together. If I'd have to guess it would be: Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Miles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, Jon Connington, Lewyn Martell and maybe LC Hightower.