Also the seven rubies I believe where supposed to relate to Rheagar's close friends, but have nothing really to prove it.
I don't really like the idea of Rhaegar being alive, so I am very open to anything you suggest. I just have a hard time going anywhere but glamor when I see those rubles. It seems that rubies are also used for some sort of control. If someone was exerting some control over Rhaegar, that could explain his sudden change of disposition.
It seems that rubies are also used for some sort of control. If someone was exerting some control over Rhaegar, that could explain his sudden change of disposition.
I'm trying to look out for rubies on my ongoing reread to see any clues to their magical uses, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering as I go, haha! Control is a good take! If this is the case, could it also say anything of the imfamous crowning? Just to through an idea out there: Rhaegar learned of using rubies in his scrolls, and used it to gain selfcontrol re: fighting. If he wasn't so young (I guess he was rather young when he showed up in the practice yard) it could be the case, but I doubt it.
Do we know anything about Darry besides the fact that he exists?
I can't recall any specific of KG Darry, but the family was fiercely Targ loyalists and probably still were at the start of the books. By now they are of course extinct IIRC, unless there's a Darry running around with BwB or something. This last war in the Riverlands took a really heavy toll on them.
That's fine. In my part of flyover country, people still listen to the Bee Gees, dance to the Village People, and sing karaoke covers of Michael Jackson. SAD lives and is hiding in the forests of Southern Illinois. I think Arthur=Mance is a lot of fun to play with. When I try to think about how it might play out, it goes in a lame and trop-y direction, but then, most of the fun theories go in that direction when I try to play them forward into a conclusion. This forces me to the conclusion that I lack the creativity of GRRM.
Doesn't make toj make any more sense if he is though.
I haven't seen a theory yet that makes sense of toj. Lyanna inside with a baby, or it doesn't have an inside, battle outside, blood magic outside, conspiracy outside -- even knowing that fever dreams probably distort reality, nothing holds together in a satisfactory way
That's fine. In my part of flyover country, people still listen to the Bee Gees, dance to the Village People, and sing karaoke covers of Michael Jackson. SAD lives and is hiding in the forests of Southern Illinois. I think Arthur=Mance is a lot of fun to play with. When I try to think about how it might play out, it goes in a lame and trop-y direction, but then, most of the fun theories go in that direction when I try to play them forward into a conclusion. This forces me to the conclusion that I lack the creativity of GRRM.
Doesn't make toj make any more sense if he is though.
I haven't seen a theory yet that makes sense of toj. Lyanna inside with a baby, or it doesn't have an inside, battle outside, blood magic outside, conspiracy outside -- even knowing that fever dreams probably distort reality, nothing holds together in a satisfactory way
Hey, I'm from Southeast Iowa. So fellow flyover country person here haha.
The problem isn't that Arthur Dayne being alive couldn't be interesting. It could've if it fit the narrative, but it doesn't. The problem with it is that Arthur Dayne fulfills a very specific narrative purpose, a major, vital component of which is a tragic and ironic death at the hands of his lover's brother. And then said brother, the main character of our first book and the patriarch of the Stark family in AGOT, is forced to raise his nephew as his own son under false pretenses after slaying his dear sister's one true love. If A + L = J, which I believe it do, Arthur being alive takes all the narrative sting and irony out of Jon's hero journey. For it set into motion the chain of events we have today: the death and ruin of House Stark, and it's impending resurrection. Remember: Winter is Coming. And the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Also the seven rubies I believe where supposed to relate to Rheagar's close friends, but have nothing really to prove it.
I don't really like the idea of Rhaegar being alive, so I am very open to anything you suggest. I just have a hard time going anywhere but glamor when I see those rubles. It seems that rubies are also used for some sort of control. If someone was exerting some control over Rhaegar, that could explain his sudden change of disposition.
I believe that the Elder Brother is actually Jonothor Darry.
Do we know anything about Darry besides the fact that he exists?
Mel is currently the only person in the current story who has used glamoring. I think the histories would remember Rhaegar's sexy red fire priestess pal.
House Darry is noted for its hardcore loyalty to house Targaryen. As far a Jon Darry just a few quotes from Jaime and that he had a hand in the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood.
That's fine. In my part of flyover country, people still listen to the Bee Gees, dance to the Village People, and sing karaoke covers of Michael Jackson. SAD lives and is hiding in the forests of Southern Illinois.
I think Arthur=Mance is a lot of fun to play with. When I try to think about how it might play out, it goes in a lame and trop-y direction, but then, most of the fun theories go in that direction when I try to play them forward into a conclusion. This forces me to the conclusion that I lack the creativity of GRRM.
The problem isn't that Arthur Dayne being alive couldn't be interesting. It could've if it fit the narrative, but it doesn't. The problem with it is that Arthur Dayne fulfills a very specific narrative purpose, a major, vital component of which is a tragic and ironic death at the hands of his lover's brother. And then said brother, the main character of our first book and the patriarch of the Stark family in AGOT, is forced to raise his nephew as his own son under false pretenses after slaying his dear sister's one true love. If A + L = J, which I believe it do, Arthur being alive takes all the narrative sting and irony out of Jon's hero journey. For it set into motion the chain of events we have today: the death and ruin of House Stark, and it's impending resurrection. Remember: Winter is Coming. And the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
I'm also just playing around with this for now, and probably will until I get written proof (aka books) that he's not. That's how it goes with favorite characters. Haven't read that much fantasy over the years, so might be I venture into tropeland. And GRRM is way better than me! In the current storyline Arthur being dead goes well with me, at the moment I favor A+L=J and I am pretty sure Jon is a Dayne. Looking for clues is fun, but my biggest problem came while reading the books and see how everything we "know" about toj and the killing of all three KG doesn't add up. So in the RR storyline it just sucks bigtime. So if it is true I'm really curious of how GRRM will solve this to my satisfaction.
I haven't seen a theory yet that makes sense of toj. Lyanna inside with a baby, or it doesn't have an inside, battle outside, blood magic outside, conspiracy outside -- even knowing that fever dreams probably distort reality, nothing holds together in a satisfactory way
The problem isn't that Arthur Dayne being alive couldn't be interesting. It could've if it fit the narrative, but it doesn't. The problem with it is that Arthur Dayne fulfills a very specific narrative purpose, a major, vital component of which is a tragic and ironic death at the hands of his lover's brother. And then said brother, the main character of our first book and the patriarch of the Stark family in AGOT, is forced to raise his nephew as his own son under false pretenses after slaying his dear sister's one true love. If A + L = J, which I believe it do, Arthur being alive takes all the narrative sting and irony out of Jon's hero journey. For it set into motion the chain of events we have today: the death and ruin of House Stark, and it's impending resurrection. Remember: Winter is Coming. And the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
I can't agree more. From a narrative point of view, AD's purpose come to an end. His king has been killed by his sworn brother. Rhaegar, his best friend, has died. Lyanna, his true love, is going to die. And he has broken his vows to not love a woman when he took Lyanna.
This world means nothing to him anymore.
As a knight of the KG, an honorable death is a good reward and the only path he's willing to walk
If A + L = J, which I believe it do, Arthur being alive takes all the narrative sting and irony out of Jon's hero journey.
This feels right (especially together with your other narrative objections). And it is essentially the reason I don't like RLJ -- Jon isn't a bastard after all and he's really the Prince Who was Promised, so everyone be happy!
I had never reflected this quote onto Jon. But it's pretty obvious, isn't it. Even more than Aria, he is always alone. Maybe one true friend, and he sent him away.
I can't agree more. From a narrative point of view, AD's purpose come to an end. His king has been killed by his sworn brother. Rhaegar, his best friend, has died. Lyanna, his true love, is going to die. And he has broken his vows to not love a woman when he took Lyanna.
This world means nothing to him anymore.
Exactly - so he leaves it. He goes to the end of the world, and beyond it.
SAD was unable to save Aerys or Rhaegar because he was ordered to be at the TOJ. He did nothing wrong that would require suicide. The honorable Ser Barristan also failed to protect his king & prince, but we don't see him wishing to die for it.
Rhaegar was clearly obsessed with prophecy. If he truly believed that TPTWP was going to have to save the world, he could have ordered SAD to assist the prince when the time came. For that, SAD would need to be alive, so he would not have turned down the Wall when Ned offered.
Regarding the death of his love Lyanna and the breaking of his vows... yes SAD would be upset, but he would still have a son to live for. A son who would be raised in Winterfell, so the Wall would be a great place from which to keep an eye on him. And we know Benjen joined the Watch at almost exactly the same time (right after RR), so maybe he went there to either keep an eye on SAD or, more likely, to be the liaison between Ned/WF and SAD/Mance. I really doubt it's a coincidence that Mance visited WF when Jon was little and remembered him well 8-10 years later, when most Northern houses (who have seen the Stark kids a lot more than that) don't even realize that Jeyne Poole isn't a Stark. No, he didn't just glance at the kids playing, he was checking out his son.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I can't agree more. From a narrative point of view, AD's purpose come to an end. His king has been killed by his sworn brother. Rhaegar, his best friend, has died. Lyanna, his true love, is going to die. And he has broken his vows to not love a woman when he took Lyanna.
This world means nothing to him anymore.
As a knight of the KG, an honorable death is a good reward and the only path he's willing to walk
These are good points, but I feel they are surface level only. I think (and hope) the story is deeper than that. I'll be the first one to say some of my toughts on this is speculation, but at this point I can't ignore them. Book-canon tells us nothing of where Lyanna was, nor exactly when she died, thus Arthur may not know she wasn't going to survive. We also don't know how serious he took the celibate part of his vow, so the point have to be changed to him (possibly) taking a highborn lady's maidenhead. There are hints at him not being loyal to Aerys anymore and supporting Rhaegars plans of usurping his sire (could also be said of more KG, in my opinion), however this could also be a point where he wresled with himself and his ultimate loyalty. Considering how close the KG are, I doubt Jamies action was a big suprise. I think they knew him better than that. (This is mostly in line with Rhaegar's Catspaw Assassin, if you want to read more on these speculations. Good theory!) Lastly, if he had lost everything else. Wouldn't a child of his body be the one thing to live for? Even at a distance?
I agree on the honorable death for a KG, but what little we know makes me question this. Suicidal last stance is the only thing I see as remotely believable, but something still smells...
And it is essentially the reason I don't like RLJ -- Jon isn't a bastard after all and he's really the Prince Who was Promised, so everyone be happy!
Will he find Rhaegars silverstringed harp, and when Dany kisses him will he break out in a sad sad song and make the maids and ladies sniffle? Didn't think much of it when I first saw s6 ending, but then I hadn't read the books or knew much about GRRM (still don't on the latter part). Now... I truly truly hope not!
I would go with a lot more than 10%, but I doubt that "they fought."
Haha, just making a point. But I would contest the "a lot", as the amount of truth and/or information is unknown. You don't think there was a fight at all? I would say some sort of altercation with swords took place, considering at least 5 of Neds 7 men died (yes, I hold off on how many if any of the KG died for now ).
I had never reflected this quote onto Jon. But it's pretty obvious, isn't it. Even more than Aria, he is always alone. Maybe one true friend, and he sent him away.
I always saw this with all the Stark kids, including Jon. Are you thinking of Sam as his only true friend? I think he had more on the wall, but him and Sam coming from highborn families and being outsiders there gave them a special bond. I was sad to see Jon sending all away, but I also think some part of that was to have his own people at the other castles. (IIRC, yes it is mentioned that he sent them to avoid playing favorites, but as he's unknown for many outside CB I think having friends there too is a good thing. I admit I have a small beef with Sam putting him in this situation, but if not we would have a very different story.)
Exactly - so he leaves it. He goes to the end of the world, and beyond it.
SAD was unable to save Aerys or Rhaegar because he was ordered to be at the TOJ. He did nothing wrong that would require suicide. The honorable Ser Barristan also failed to protect his king & prince, but we don't see him wishing to die for it.
Rhaegar was clearly obsessed with prophecy. If he truly believed that TPTWP was going to have to save the world, he could have ordered SAD to assist the prince when the time came. For that, SAD would need to be alive, so he would not have turned down the Wall when Ned offered.
Regarding the death of his love Lyanna and the breaking of his vows... yes SAD would be upset, but he would still have a son to live for. A son who would be raised in Winterfell, so the Wall would be a great place from which to keep an eye on him. And we know Benjen joined the Watch at almost exactly the same time (right after RR), so maybe he went there to either keep an eye on SAD or, more likely, to be the liaison between Ned/WF and SAD/Mance. I really doubt it's a coincidence that Mance visited WF when Jon was little and remembered him well 8-10 years later, when most Northern houses (who have seen the Stark kids a lot more than that) don't even realize that Jeyne Poole isn't a Stark. No, he didn't just glance at the kids playing, he was checking out his son.
I agree with most here! Although I not convinced the northeren lords are truly fooled by Jayne, not all at least.
We also don't know how serious he took the celibate part of his vow
No, but he was Dornish, and we know how Dornish people feel about paramours and the topic of sexual chastity broadly speaking: they're not fans of it. And more to the point, we know exactly how Arthur's fellow KG, contemporary and Dornishman Lewyn Martell felt about it:
"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …" "… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that." - The Discarded Knight, ADWD
We also don't know how serious he took the celibate part of his vow
No, but he was Dornish, and we know how Dornish people feel about paramours and the topic of sexual chastity broadly speaking: they're not fans of it. And more to the point, we know exactly how Arthur's fellow KG, contemporary and Dornishman Lewyn Martell felt about it:
"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …" "… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that." - The Discarded Knight, ADWD
Yes, this says alot and I doubt he had a problem with it. My head-canon said the Daynes as stoney Dornish are a mix culturally between Andal and Dornish, so I was treading carefully. Also, the Dayne kids of that generation grew up closely to the Martells, no? Methinks Oberyn would have made an influence there!
Another point for me is that the whole thing about the Sword of the Morning has to be more than just a really cool sword. So we really have no idea of what Arthur might have known from his position as SotM. Wich again could be one (of several) reason for his close relationship with Rhaegar.
Yes, this says alot and I doubt he had a problem with it. My head-canon said the Daynes as stoney Dornish are a mix culturally between Andal and Dornish, so I was treading carefully. Also, the Dayne kids of that generation grew up closely to the Martells, no? Methinks Oberyn would have made an influence there!
Another point for me is that the whole thing about the Sword of the Morning has to be more than just a really cool sword. So we really have no idea of what Arthur might have known from his position as SotM. Wich again could be one (of several) reason for his close relationship with Rhaegar.
Well, your head cannon's fucking WRONG! (just kidding )
The Martells are descended from the Rhyonar and the Daynes are actually First Men, NOT Andals. There isn't a whole lot a Andal culture that has permeated Dorne. Which is why Dorne is so much different culturally than the rest of Westeros. They have less influence of the religiously puritanical faith of the Seven (thus you have the liberal sexual values, the lack of stigma towards bastards and paramours, etc.)
As far as your point about the Sword of the Morning well, I think you're onto something. Specifically the Sword of the Morning, is not merely a title of lordship or an ancestral birthright, but rather an office appointed ONLY to a member of House Dayne BY members OF House Dayne and ONLY if said member is deemed worthy to wield both the blade Dawn (and all the attendant martial skill required to wield it well), and the responsibility of the office (as being an exemplar of knighthood and honor and chivalry). Otherwise Dawn stays at Starfall stored away awaiting the next Sword of the Morning to rise. Or Dawn if you will HAHAHA. Sorry. I love puns.
But the real heart of the matter is this: what is the significance of the office? Is it magical in nature? Mayhaps. Who knows. Mayhaps it is simply a kind of symbol. A reminder to all Daynes of what their house stands for and why it matters to uphold it. Because Winter is Coming.