But that statement isn't my interpretation. It's canon:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX
There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
I think there’s a difference between sitting down and thinking about the life of Rhaegar and thinking about Lyanna, her death, and how Rhaegar is associated with it. Something as dramatic as watching your sister die isn’t easily forgotten. I know, I know that that part is in the show and not the books, but I don’t see the show straying that far off of the source material.
The shows loves to stray from book Canon so the show means little and less on how the books will be.
I love the line about Ned not thinking of Rhaegar in years. RLJ Truthers will point out that Ned had thought about Rhaegar in previous chapters. RLJ Deniers will point to that line making Jon to be Rhaegar's son impossible.
My take is that it means that Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar because Jon isn't his. He thinks about Rhaegar in previous chapters because he is with Robert again who has a hate boner for Rhaegar the size of the Wall.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Though Aerys who actually personally had his father and brother killed enters Ned's thoughts even less than Rhaegar, so what's going on there? It would seem that Ned is very unlike Robert in this. He doesn't hate people fifteen years later. Now the way he primarily things of Aerys the murderer of half his family is not of a villain who needed to be revenged upon, but as a victim of the evil Lannisters. Aerys is just background to the hated Jaime Lannister now. Just as Rhaegar is just background to the beloved Lyanna.
Indeed. Aerys was not a combatant.
Like Ned-himself, Rhaegar was a war commander... A war commander who was killed to put an end to the murder of children.
Ned paints Robert's Rebellion with a very broad brush:
"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl." Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"
Interesting age, that Daenerys. It seems Ned is also empassioned when royals attempt to harm child-women.
I think the simple answer for the Rhaegar question is that he's just not all that relevant to Ned. Being the father of the boy he's raised as his son doesn't really impact this, because he's long dead and gone and not really all that relevant. He didn't even live to see that son born, after all. Ned didn't know Rhaegar, so what is there really to remember? When Rhaegar is relevant to the conversation, Ned is perfectly happy to bring the name up, but that's all he really is to Ned in that situation, a name from history.
Tell you what. I'll agree with you.
But you must agree that it also makes sense for Rhaegar to be irrelevant to Ned if Rhaegar wasn't the guy who stole his sister from his best friend, broke his father's marriage pacts, left his sister to die in a bed of blood before her time, and sired the boy that calls him Father.
Jon is a constant reminder of Lyanna, who made a huge impression on Ned's psyche. He's far too busy thinking about Lyanna to consider Rhaegar, who barely made an impression at all.
Cool. Please direct me to the passage(s) in which Jon reminds Ned of Lyanna.
And if Ned is far too busy thinking about Lyanna to think about Rhaegar, then why does Rhaegar come up as often as Lyanna in Ned's chapters?
That's really quite easily resolved by there having been someone else other than the seven against three. Let me explain this by parallel. Notice that there are more than two men in this scene:
Wow. No wonder why we keep clashing on this kingmonkey ! We have way different mental pictures of the tower of joy. And clearly, Lyanna=Tina Turner. How she gave birth suspended from a zipline, we may never know, but at least this finally answers the question of why that tower was required for the birth place.
In all sincerity, I have to give you major props for incorporating Beyond Thunderdome into your argument. Epic scene.
If Ned were narrating a trial by combat, I'd be the first man to agree with your resolution good ser. But Ned is more like one of the people climbing the sphere, no? Investigating goings-on... Locating rogues...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Like Ned-himself, Rhaegar was a war commander... A war commander who was killed to put an end to the murder of children.
Right, but not necessarily one he blames for the murder of children. Barristan, for example, was a war commander on the same side, yet he's about the closest thing Ned has to a friend in KL apart from Robert.
Oooon the other hand, given Ned's memory of the Mad King is so oddly sympathetic, I don't think we can say that Ned would necessarily have a very different attitude towards Rhaegar 15 years on even if he did blame Rhaegar for the murder of children. I wouldn't exclude that possibility yet.
But you must agree that it also makes sense for Rhaegar to be irrelevant to Ned if Rhaegar wasn't the guy who stole his sister from his best friend, broke his father's marriage pacts, left his sister to die in a bed of blood before her time, and sired the boy that calls him Father.
Oh absolutely. It works fine either way, which is why I wouldn't want to use it as evidence either way.
Cool. Please direct me to the passage(s) in which Jon reminds Ned of Lyanna.
I'll pick out your favourite chapter and do the reverse!
"Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.
That's Ned going to see the mother of a bastard who smiles sweetly at him and gets him to make a promise, just like with Lyanna. And Jon Snow's face comes to mind.
And if Ned is far too busy thinking about Lyanna to think about Rhaegar, then why does Rhaegar come up as often as Lyanna in Ned's chapters?
Hmm you may have a point, because in that very example I gave above, Ned ALSO thinks about Rhaegar!
Seriously though, counting the mentions doesn't tell the whole story here though. Ned's mind turns to Rhaegar when he's directly relevant to the situation. By contrast all sorts of things that only vaguely echo Lyanna bring her to mind. "Promise me, Ned." He's haunted by his memories of Lyanna, he's not haunted by his memories of Rhaegar.
No wonder why we keep clashing on this kingmonkey ! We have way different mental pictures of the tower of joy. And clearly, Lyanna=Tina Turner. How she gave birth suspended from a zipline, we may never know, but at least this finally answers the question of why that tower was required for the birth place.
The zipline was Whent's sick idea. I keep telling people, Whent was one twisted mutha. That's why Rhaegar always kept him well supplied with Dornish weed. A mellow japester when stoned, but a sober Ser Oswell is not a man you'd ever want to meet.
In all sincerity, I have to give you major props for incorporating Beyond Thunderdome into your argument. Epic scene.
If Ned were narrating a trial by combat, I'd be the first man to agree with your resolution good ser. But Ned is more like one of the people climbing the sphere, no? Investigating goings-on... Locating rogues...
There's always room for Max.
I can't agree that Ned is more like one of the spectators, he's very much one of the fighters. If Ned is Max, does that make Whent & Dayne Master & Blaster?
However this is more of a question of language.
Two men enter -- It was three against seven. But one man leaves -- But only two had lived to ride away.
The "one man leaves" doesn't mean that none of the spectators left. It only means that of the two combatants who entered the Thunderdome, only one left alive. Likewise, "only two had lived to ride away" speaks of the three against seven combatants at the ToJ, not anyone else who might have been there, spectating. If there had been a wetnurse there, for example, we can be fairly sure she was not one of the three against seven -- or by Max, not either of the two men who entered.
Unless she was a particularly stabby sort of wetnurse, of course. She might have been into that kind of thing.
Here I disagree. Ned is a very reliable narrator when it comes to Jon's parentage
you misread me. I was talking about the unreliable author...not the unreliable POV narrator. I agree that Ned is mostly reliable but i do think that GRRM is not. The latter books were bitches because he just had to lift his game.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.
interesting quote indeed.
We know how Brandon was brought to an early grave. He defied the king and fell headlong in a trap. Right?
So how to interpret the parallel with Lyanna? shedid something that backfired on her. If that is the case, then we are not talking about abduction or rape but something else, something she wanted to do.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I think that lack of wrath from Ned demonstrates that Rhaegar did not abduct Lyanna.
Seems likely. I'm not sure it means they weren't somehow together though. Even if it was her plan, since she is a female, that may qualify as an "abduction" or "rape". But Ned, knowing Lyanna, may understand it differently.
I don't want to get too far off topic with conjecture regarding a completely different theory, but it does bear stating that Ned killed a she-wolf of surpassing loveliness
Wow. That can lead some really dark directions. I've been thinking his actions may have lead to Lyanna's death, but Ned killed Lady with his eyes open, hating it but not flinching from it. Lyanna as Nyssa Nyssa?
It's not about being proven right, it's about having a nice broad conversation.
I don't spend much time in Internet discussions. There are always too many people who don't seem to realize that there's no point to it if it isn't fun. A few months ago I stumbled across this place where everyone seems to find joy in exploring their disagreements and occasionally making fun of each other. That should be normal, but it isn't.
Though Aerys who actually personally had his father and brother killed enters Ned's thoughts even less than Rhaegar, so what's going on there?
The fact that the author doesn't show us Ned's thoughts about Aerys doesn't mean they aren't there. In the case of Rhaegar, we are told that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar -- we don't have that information with Aerys. But I think you are right that there is something odd here.
Now the way he primarily things of Aerys the murderer of half his family is not of a villain who needed to be revenged upon, but as a victim of the evil Lannisters.
Or maybe Ned knows things that will change our perception of Aerys
The fact that the author doesn't show us Ned's thoughts about Aerys doesn't mean they aren't there. In the case of Rhaegar, we are told that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar -- we don't have that information with Aerys. But I think you are right that there is something odd here.
Absolutely, but we do have a clue here. Aerys is not entirely missing from Ned's thoughts, and those occasions where he does show up are not suggestive that he plays a major role in Ned's inner life. In the times Aerys is there, he's not the focus of Ned's thoughts, but rather part of the background. He's much more angry about the fact that Jaime killed Aerys than that Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon. That's highly suggestive that despite Aerys' crimes, he's a man who leaves the past in the past -- with the notable exception of Lyanna.
Or maybe Ned knows things that will change our perception of Aerys
Always possible. After all if you have a PoV narrator who knows the butler did it, you're going to want to steer his thoughts away from butlers. I wouldn't expect too many surprises though. We've had a lot of corroboration of Aerys' sins from characters who were much closer to the Mad King than Ned ever was.
I get the impression that Ned views Aerys as a king who tragically went mad and needed to be removed rather than as a true villain. I think that helps explain why Ned was so pissed at Jaime. Ned didn't want to rebel, but had no choice but to do so, not just to save his own skin but for the greater good. Having the sacrifices he made for that greater good usurped by Lannisters who rebelled for their own personal gain pisses him right off.
But you must agree that it also makes sense for Rhaegar to be irrelevant to Ned if Rhaegar wasn't the guy who stole his sister from his best friend, broke his father's marriage pacts, left his sister to die in a bed of blood before her time, and sired the boy that calls him Father.
Oh absolutely. It works fine either way, which is why I wouldn't want to use it as evidence either way.
It works either way, but I think you are letting your beliefs cloud your reason a tad. This is not some bit of evidence that exists in a vacuum, adrift in space. And really, to me, it isn't even a case to be proven. It is a discussion to be had about characters in an incomplete story.
But, let me ask you. And please be honest. Which makes more sense? Sceanario 1 or Scenario 2? Leave the theories behind. Leave our histories of arguing them behind. Leave the politics of westeros.org behind. Which makes more sense?
Scenario 1:Rhaegar is irrelevant to Ned because Rhaegar didn't steal his sister from his best friend, didn't break his father's marriage pacts, didn't leave his sister to die in a bed of blood before her time, and didn't sire the boy that calls him Father.
Scenario 2:Rhaegar did do all of those things, but Ned just thinks of him as a forgettable historical figure.
See? This is where confirmation bias narrows the discussion. While "it works fine either way," in a vacuum, do both of these things make sense in the story?
Again, I'm all for RLJ. I would love it to be true. LOVE IT I tell you!
But I see no reason to marry a theory, and to stick by it even when it isn't making any sense. (Not that Mrs Voice ever doesn't make sense! Is she lurking? )
Instead, I think a theory should be tested and questioned. When it doesn't make sense, we should find what does.
Rather than gloss over these oddities, or simply accept them as flies in the vaseline, I think we should take a long careful look at them. Polish them. Appreciate them for the gems they are. The pages are finite, and those gems exist for a reason. I don't think I need to argue how great and subtle a writer GRRM is in this company. These gems are where he is so far better than most. But anyway...
A strong theory should not require us to neglect sense for the sake of loyalty. While I know you are not asking that, I do think the conversation is more rewarding if we simply accept that there are some holes in RLJ that do not make sense if Ned is raising the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
I'll pick out your favourite chapter and do the reverse!
"Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.
That's Ned going to see the mother of a bastard who smiles sweetly at him and gets him to make a promise, just like with Lyanna. And Jon Snow's face comes to mind.
Hmm, maybe if I squint... But no, that passage doesn't demonstrate your argument. Let me remind you of your claim:
Jon is a constant reminder of Lyanna, who made a huge impression on Ned's psyche.He's far too busy thinking about Lyanna to consider Rhaegar, who barely made an impression at all.
We've already ruled out the text in strikeout. All I ask is a passage that demonstrates the bold.
In the passage you've provided, we have two reminders. The first, I quite agree, is that the child-woman abed reminds Ned of Lyanna. So we're good there.
But the second reminder is one in which either Jon's face reminds Ned of his own in youth, or, Ned's thoughts of youth remind him of Jon's face.
If you want to make the claim that memories of Lyanna have caused Jon's face to show up, then I can certainly agree to that as well.
But these of course do not demonstrate your claim that "Jon is a constant reminder of Lyanna." If anything, it seems that this scene reminds Ned of his younger self, and how much Jon resembles his younger self.
There are any number of ways we might paraphrase it, but thing that does not happen in this passage is Jon Snow reminding Ned of Lyanna.
I really need to write up Ned+Lyanna. LOL
(I laugh, but it's no joke. It really does explain absolutely everything. Off topic here, though.)
Hmm you may have a point, because in that very example I gave above, Ned ALSO thinks about Rhaegar!
Seriously though, counting the mentions doesn't tell the whole story here though. Ned's mind turns to Rhaegar when he's directly relevant to the situation. By contrast all sorts of things that only vaguely echo Lyanna bring her to mind. "Promise me, Ned." He's haunted by his memories of Lyanna, he's not haunted by his memories of Rhaegar.
Bingo.
By your own reasoning in this response, Rhaegar is not relevant to Ned's Jon-situation.
The zipline was Whent's sick idea. I keep telling people, Whent was one twisted mutha. That's why Rhaegar always kept him well supplied with Dornish weed. A mellow japester when stoned, but a sober Ser Oswell is not a man you'd ever want to meet.
Whent knows how to party, that much is plain. But compared to Lyanna, the man was another Samwell Tarly.
I can't agree that Ned is more like one of the spectators, he's very much one of the fighters. If Ned is Max, does that make Whent & Dayne Master & Blaster?
However this is more of a question of language.
Two men enter -- It was three against seven. But one man leaves -- But only two had lived to ride away.
The "one man leaves" doesn't mean that none of the spectators left. It only means that of the two combatants who entered the Thunderdome, only one left alive. Likewise, "only two had lived to ride away" speaks of the three against seven combatants at the ToJ, not anyone else who might have been there, spectating. If there had been a wetnurse there, for example, we can be fairly sure she was not one of the three against seven -- or by Max, not either of the two men who entered.
I think you are missing the fundamental difference here kingmonkey, and, I think you are missing it intentionally.
Ned was not a (...let's be honest... slightly overdramatic) master of ceremonies. Ned was not chronicling the duel for others. He was a combatant, remembering the place of combat and the people there.
Imagine how odd that speech would have been if it came from Mel Gibson to that crowd beyond the Thunderdome.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Seems likely. I'm not sure it means they weren't somehow together though. Even if it was her plan, since she is a female, that may qualify as an "abduction" or "rape". But Ned, knowing Lyanna, may understand it differently.
I completely agree. They may well have been together. And if they were, I'd have to assume it was Lyanna's doing. (If Arya's behavior toward princes, and Lyanna's behavior toward squires, are examples of she-wolves with a touch of the wolf-blood, I find it unlikely Rhaegar would have enjoyed their theoretical time together.)
But yes, again I agree. Ned knew Lyanna like few others. People who favor RLJ tend to make Robert's mistake, in my opinion. They see Lyanna's beauty, but not her iron underneath. Ned didn't compare her to Sansa.
Wow. That can lead some really dark directions. I've been thinking his actions may have lead to Lyanna's death, but Ned killed Lady with his eyes open, hating it but not flinching from it. Lyanna as Nyssa Nyssa?
Indeed. And Ned was ready to kill all the wolf pups in Bran I. Ned is no stranger to killing. According to the Hound, it feels sweet and Ned would come to enjoy it, or already does. I don't think the Hound is a reliable narrator in terms of Stark philosophy, but I do think he's an accurate narrator of a man who has done some killing.
Ned Stark has done some killing. And the Ned we hear speak in the fever dream is a man who enjoys killing. Eddard the Lord was ready to kill the wolf pups. Eddard the Father killed Lady Wolf. And, Ned shipped the dead Lady Wolf's body all the way back to Winterfell so that special funeral rites could be observed. He didn't want anyone else to have her.
Howland Reed had to take Lyanna's dead hand from out of his own... Ned could recall none of it.
I don't spend much time in Internet discussions. There are always too many people who don't seem to realize that there's no point to it if it isn't fun. A few months ago I stumbled across this place where everyone seems to find joy in exploring their disagreements and occasionally making fun of each other. That should be normal, but it isn't.
I couldn't agree more. And, what shouldn't be normal, in my opinion, is the opposite of that. The opposite of this.
Discussion without disagreement is like an ocean with no waves. Boring.
And then, you have your oceans of disagreement that are a bit too interesting.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
My take is that it means that Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar because Jon isn't his. He thinks about Rhaegar in previous chapters because he is with Robert again who has a hate boner for Rhaegar the size of the Wall.
you misread me. I was talking about the unreliable author...not the unreliable POV narrator. I agree that Ned is mostly reliable but i do think that GRRM is not. The latter books were bitches because he just had to lift his game.
My bad. Indeed I did. But I have a much different view of the latter (basically unedited) books. LOL
We know how Brandon was brought to an early grave. He defied the king and fell headlong in a trap. Right?
So how to interpret the parallel with Lyanna? shedid something that backfired on her. If that is the case, then we are not talking about abduction or rape but something else, something she wanted to do.
I think so. I feel like the theory-makers tend to ignore Lyanna herself in all this. Which is really odd because Ned sure doesn't.
In Ned's mind, no one harmed Lyanna... except maybe himself. And no one led Lyanna to an early grave other than her own wolf-blood.
No abduction memories. No memories of her swooning for princes or even lords muscled like the fantasies of other maidens. Nope. In Ned's mind, it's all just Lyanna. Lyanna this. Lyanna that. Lyanna's beauty. Lyanna's iron. Lyanna's wolf-blood. Lyanna's "promise me."
(Well, maybe just Lyanna + Lyanna's "dearest Ned" )
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I don't spend much time in Internet discussions. There are always too many people who don't seem to realize that there's no point to it if it isn't fun.
Lyanna's behavior toward squires, are examples of she-wolves with a touch of the wolf-blood,
Could Lyanna's downfall be due to an act of revenge from either/all of the 3 squires/their houses who were so humiliated in front of the creme de la creme of the kingdom? Add to this a pinch of Tywin's opportunism...
Admittedly it is not as romantic an explanation as a regal dragon love tryst born of prophecies and sad songs, but it would have a clear motive and cause for its gory end.
It is not a Sansa type story, but Arya might well like it.
As Ned was a good candidate for being the avenger behind the KOTLT mask, he would be well placed to appreciate the consequences.
Has this been discussed?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Ned Stark has done some killing. And the Ned we hear speak in the fever dream is a man who enjoys killing. Eddard the Lord was ready to kill the wolf pups. Eddard the Father killed Lady Wolf. And, Ned shipped the dead Lady Wolf's body all the way back to Winterfell so that special funeral rites could be observed. He didn't want anyone else to have her.
I agree except about the fever dream. It doesn't sound like pleasure to me. And I'm not sure that it is the prelude to combat. And most other indications are that Ned did not enjoy killing.