There is no way of knowing if they are giving us fan service, or if that was the way GRRM plans on writing those scenes. Of course, he needs to write the books for us to find out.
Btw, never understood the excitement about the "Cleganbowl"? I never wanted to see it, and really don't care if we do. The Mountain was never really fleshed out enough for me to really care about him.
I don't think so I think that will be Bran's story to tell. He will definitely find something in there though.
I disagree....No matter what truth will eventually come out GRRM is not going to have Sam find a marriage and or annulment certificate in The Citadel.
Sam has given all the info he needs to give on Dragonglass.He's helped cure Jorah.His story is done or he has one more bit of info to find.
That scene is telegraphed already in this show and it was already a theory on the forums.Mouldy parchment here we come.
Nowhere in the books is that even a shadow.
So was Bran finding out through the trees and "telling Jon".Yet I can't help but remember Bran's drean with Ned telling him something about Jon.How much that troubled him more than any crow dream.
I can't see finding out Jon being your cousin as terrifying, no matter the circumstance.
There are certain things you can just tell they are grasping from forums.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I disagree....No matter what truth will eventually come out GRRM is not going to have Sam find a marriage and or annulment certificate in The Citadel.
Don't we agree then? I think that Bran will spill the beans on who Jon's true parents are. Sam will find something important in those scrolls though.It's Chekov's Gun it's just sitting there waiting to go off. Not to mention they have spent too much time on Sam for his scenes not to be important.
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Post by silentmajority on Aug 3, 2017 22:45:13 GMT
A lot of podcasts that I have listened to have complained about a forced romance between Dany and Jon. I have watched the episode 3 times and I still don't see any chemistry or interest between the two. Not saying it won't happen, but I don't see it yet...
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But they reduced Tyrion to a bumbling idiot.Every advice given was crap.I would fire him.He is no longer Tyrion to me.He lost that edge that identified him as intelligent.
This is a sentiment I've seen expressed a lot (and felt myself), but the more I chew on it, the more I disagree. Do Tyrion's military 'failures' at the end of the episode represent idiocy?
Tyrion is book smart, but his military experience is essentially nothing compared to Randall Tarly's, so why shouldn't we believe that Tyrion can be outmaneuvered by the commanders that he's going against?
Furthermore, if we're to find this scenario ludicrous, then what of the text, which has Tywin Lannister consistently outmaneuvered by a 14 year old Robb Stark? I can't help but feel that Robb's military successes, if depicted first in the show, would have been declared "fan service," with people saying that it doesn't make sense for Tywin Lannister to lose so many battles. ___
To be clear, I still found a lot of what's happening - Euron's omnipresent fleet, an undefended Highgarden - to be ridiculous scenarios, but I believe this is exposing a potential issue with Dany's invasion in both the show and the books (and is likely a big part of why GRRM hasn't brought her west yet): Once Dany invades, what next?
How do you draw narrative tension out of a story that should "logically" end in Dany steamrolling the competition? For example, we're promised a second 'Dance of the Dragons,' but Dany has dragons, 8,000 Unsullied, and (eventually) tens of thousands of Dothraki...while Aegon has the Golden Company, and maybe Dorne. That's not much a dance.
While I'm sure GRRM will attempt to craft better military scenarios, I can't help but feel that we're still going to see some contrived losses for Dany, because the only alternative is that she wins, and wins, and wins, and wins...and then the Others come.
A lot of podcasts that I have listened to have complained about a forced romance between Dany and Jon. I have watched the episode 3 times and I still don't see any chemistry or interest between the two. Not saying it won't happen, but I don't see it yet...
Haha,I read that we agree.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Which is why George gave her (f)Aegon. The show is now an object lesson in what happens when you remove a massive part of the narrative from an adaptation. Without Young Griff they have had to conjure much of the dramatic tension his character creates out of thin air and as such it feels contrived.
I mentioned to some other folks a while back that the writing on the show had started to remind me of something else, it has started to remind me of pro wrestling booking. For those who don't know, the term "booking" refers to the crafting of a narrative within a wrestling promotion (like WWE or Impact). The bookers decide who wins and how, they decide who will face who and they decide the basic narrative for the character (are they a try-hard babyface or a crafty heel) etcetera. Bookers use wins and losses (or more specifically, the manner of those wins and losses) to create a narrative. For example, they can take a heel (bad guy) character and "put them over" ("going over" is a term used to mean the winner of the match, ie John Cena usually goes over") a babyface (good guy) but they will put him over dirty. So the heel will somehow cheat to win (a pull of the tights, a low blow behind the refs back, whatever), this allows the heel to get the momentum and bragging rights of winning but the face retains credibility because the bad guy cheated (this is a slippery slope though, have a face get beat by cheatery too many times and they start to just look dumb). So how does this relate ? Well D&D are engaged in quite a bit of this right now, they are putting Cersei & Jaime (the heels) over as competent and adept leaders, suggesting that now they are out of their father's shadow they can finally shine and the writers are using Tyrion (the mega babyface) to "put them over". In other words, they have already established Tyrion's bona fides as an intelligent man so having Jaime & Cersei outmaneuver him makes them look even better. Problems ? Well note what I said earlier about the dangers of having a babyface get repeatedly screwed over, at some point they just look like a moron. It happened to Stannis, it happened to Ned, it happened to Robb (spectacularly) & it's happened to Tyrion. His failure in Meereen was just to put Missy & Grey Worm over as competent advisors, his failures in Westeros are just to put over his siblings. My point (I guess) is that it's a terrible way to write a tv show. I will codify this into a real theory at some point, I have so much more. Brienne is like a super-talented midcarder at this point, so good you don't want to lose them but in truth you have absolutely nothing for them to do. Littlefinger is pretty much Bray Wyatt, Stannis was Daniel Bryan but I'll let the show play out then maybe take a retrospective look at the whole thing and how it was booked, not written
Last Edit: Aug 4, 2017 19:02:05 GMT by pieceofgosa
But they reduced Tyrion to a bumbling idiot.Every advice given was crap.I would fire him.He is no longer Tyrion to me.He lost that edge that identified him as intelligent.
This is a sentiment I've seen expressed a lot (and felt myself), but the more I chew on it, the more I disagree. Do Tyrion's military 'failures' at the end of the episode represent idiocy?
Tyrion is book smart, but his military experience is essentially nothing compared to Randall Tarly's, so why shouldn't we believe that Tyrion can be outmaneuvered by the commanders that he's going against?
Furthermore, if we're to find this scenario ludicrous, then what of the text, which has Tywin Lannister consistently outmaneuvered by a 14 year old Robb Stark? I can't help but feel that Robb's military successes, if depicted first in the show, would have been declared "fan service," with people saying that it doesn't make sense for Tywin Lannister to lose so many battles. ___
To be clear, I still found a lot of what's happening - Euron's omnipresent fleet, an undefended Highgarden - to be ridiculous scenarios, but I believe this is exposing a potential issue with Dany's invasion in both the show and the books (and is likely a big part of why GRRM hasn't brought her west yet): Once Dany invades, what next?
How do you draw narrative tension out of a story that should "logically" end in Dany steamrolling the competition? For example, we're promised a second 'Dance of the Dragons,' but Dany has dragons, 8,000 Unsullied, and (eventually) tens of thousands of Dothraki...while Aegon has the Golden Company, and maybe Dorne. That's not much a dance.
While I'm sure GRRM will attempt to craft better military scenarios, I can't help but feel that we're still going to see some contrived losses for Dany, because the only alternative is that she wins, and wins, and wins, and wins...and then the Others come.
He outsmarted Stannis on the Blackwater.To me its not even a matter of Tyrion's military ability.His advice since Mereene with the Masters have been crap.Me miscalculated and misjudged every enemy and every situation.
Even if he knows Cersie is impulsive and rash,he knows Jamie is not.Yet he made a rookie mistake.You went after Casterly Rock??Really?
And Cersie went from being who she was to being a master at the game???
Tyrion knows that Jamie and Cersie knew that Tywin had given him the job at revamping Casterly Rock's sewer system.It isn't an edge when your enemy knows that.
That alone should have stopped that plan.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
A lot of podcasts that I have listened to have complained about a forced romance between Dany and Jon. I have watched the episode 3 times and I still don't see any chemistry or interest between the two. Not saying it won't happen, but I don't see it yet...
A lot of reviewers are hyping over no chemistry IMO.
To me its not even a matter of Tyrion's military ability.His advice since Mereene with the Masters have been crap.Me miscalculated and misjudged every enemy and every situation.
See my post just above wolfmaid7, Tyrion's failures are written to make other characters look smart, the writers think he is so over with the fans that he can take it. As I said, great way to book pro wrestling, terrible way to write a TV show.
To me its not even a matter of Tyrion's military ability.His advice since Mereene with the Masters have been crap.Me miscalculated and misjudged every enemy and every situation.
See my post just above wolfmaid7, Tyrion's failures are written to make other characters look smart, the writers think he is so over with the fans that he can take it. As I said, great way to book pro wrestling, terrible way to write a TV show.
Missed it on my phone,but you are dead right on the money.Its solo motonic.Tyrion totally sucks,Little finger seems to have had his brain cells frozen.Its been a total face palm.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Well D&D are engaged in quite a bit of this right now, they are putting Cersei & Jaime (the heels) over as competent and adept leaders, suggesting that now they are out of their father's shadow they can finally shine and the writers are using Tyrion (the mega babyface) to "put them over". In other words, they have already established Tyrion's bona fides as an intelligent man so having Jaime & Cersei outmaneuver him makes them look even better. Problems
He outsmarted Stannis on the Blackwater.To me its not even a matter of Tyrion's military ability.His advice since Mereene with the Masters have been crap.Me miscalculated and misjudged every enemy and every situation.
I'm judging these things on a case-by-case basis, and independently of how bad the Harpy story was in season 6, I still don't feel that this episode represents Tyrion being an "idiot."
Keep in mind, he's not just going against the Lannisters, he's going against Randyll Tarly, a widely respected commander--the "finest soldier in the realm," as assessed by Kevan Lannister in the books, and the man he felt most suited to fill the vacuum left by Tywin's absence, and finish off House Lannister's remaining enemies.
To me, there's nothing inherently "wrong" about the idea that Tyrion would lose battles - to reiterate, it is less absurd than the canonical text premise that Tywin Lannister would consistently lose battles to a 14 year old who had never lead an army or even his own House until a few months prior to Eddard's imprisonment.
The more significant problem, perhaps, is that it comes on the heels of several seasons where Tyrion had very little to do, or was otherwise depicted poorly, which makes his failures in this episode look like the latest in a string of failures, rather than what it is intended to be: a surprise setback for Dany's intimidating coalition.
That's not ideal, but I disagree with criticisms that are rooted in the premise of what characters are "supposed to be;" Tyrion is smart, so he's not "supposed" to make mistakes...yet most of his ASOS arc is him discovering that, despite defining himself by his intellect, he is constantly outmaneuvered in the aftermath of the Blackwater, the lead up to Joffrey's death, during his trial, and in its aftermath. He spends an entire book as an unwitting pawn in the games that Tywin, Olenna, Littlefinger, Oberyn, and Varys are playing.
Which is why George gave her (f)Aegon. The show is now an object lesson in what happens when you remove a massive part of the narrative from an adaptation. Without Young Griff they have had to conjure much of the dramatic tension his character creates out of thin air and as such it feels contrived.
I raised Aegon in my original post for the very reason that I do think he's a contrived threat, and not really a great deal better than what is being done in the show in order to present Dany with obstacles; "contrived," and "out of thin air" would not be entirely inapt for Young Griff, even if GRRM was obviously planning his introduction as far back as ACOK.
In execution, his arc feels like bloat, and I maintain that GRRM has perpetually delayed Dany's invasion, spun his wheels with her arc, because the moment you throw the dragons (and, to a lesser extent, the Dothraki and Unsullied) into Westeros, it's difficult to maintain the tension surrounding the Machiavellian schemes; Littlefinger might successfully divide the Lords Declarant, but what the fuck is he going to do against dragons and Others?
Once the High Fantasy elements finally collide with Westeros, ASOIAF becomes a different story--it is unavoidable.
To me, there's nothing inherently "wrong" about the idea that Tyrion would lose battles
Absolutely, it's the manner of how they are lost that is the issue Back to my (by now) wrestling conceit, Tyrion's gimmick is literally that he, "drinks and knows things" right ? Olenna, in the second episode, puts him over as a "clever man" and he tries to win the Rock by clever means... and fails. He tried to govern Meereen with wits & cleverness..... and he failed. The last clever plan he had that actually worked was the Blackwater. Yes they had him go over a couple of slavers and talk his way into Meereen with Jorah but that's not much to give guy in four seasons !!! So cleverness, in general, is being buried by the writers for no other reason that to put over the Lannisters as a credible threat (see the squashing of the Tyrells) and going back to Olenna, in that same quote where she puts over Tyrion as clever, she buries the notion of cleverness itself (a dig by D&D toward George maybe? You think you're so smart Georgie with your nuanced, layered plot? Well we're gonna finish it first dickhead !!). anyway, in conclusion; Tyrion is the victim of D&D allowing Dany to get so OP in the first place, in the books (I keep faith karsa, I am but a summer child) when Dany gets to Westeros, Aegon will have been there for quite a while scooping up all of the natural Targ allies. This immediately puts Dany on the back foot no matter how strong her army is. D&D chose not to include Aegon and so we get a number of... questionable things happening in the first half of this season.
"contrived," and "out of thin air" would not be entirely inapt for Young Griff, even if GRRM was obviously planning his introduction as far back as ACOK.
Bit of a contradiction there, no? Not seeing how you can say Aegon is contrived and out of thin air while still admitting he was planned ages ago ? Those are mutually exclusive. Well, maybe not contrived, I'll give you a little contrived but I still say less contrived than Dany not going straight for KL or someone not taking Dragonstone years ago or Euron's teleporting ghost fleet or Jaime Lannister: Military genius
Bit of a contradiction there, no? Not seeing how you can say Aegon is contrived and out of thin air while still admitting he was planned ages ago ? Those are mutually exclusive. Well, maybe not contrived, I'll give you a little contrived but I still say less contrived than Dany not going straight for KL or someone not taking Dragonstone years ago or Euron's teleporting ghost fleet or Jaime Lannister: Military genius
I call Aegon contrived in execution because, while Dany's "Mummer's Dragon" vision in ACOK demonstrates that GRRM always intended some variation of this plot, brief foreshadowing in a prophecy is not the same thing as an ongoing build up--to the reader that is not spending years between novels in the "fan theory" rabbit hole, Aegon does feel a bit out of left field.
I can only speak to my experience as a reader, but I found Aegon to be one of several newly introduced 'causes' within AFFC/ADWD that I'm just not feeling invested in, plotlines that seem a little too close to filler, in a series that is already becoming aimless and untethered; what is ADWD "about?" What is its thesis, what are its themes? Does ADWD have a plot?
The problem is that ASOIAF is no longer a cohesive narrative, its a bunch of individual character stories, many of which are interesting in a vacuum, but not necessarily adding up to a compelling overall story.
To get back to Aegon, book Aegon at least benefits from stuff like the Dunk & Egg novels, which adds context to the history of the Golden Company and the Blackfyres, and potential theories over what Varys, the Golden Company, etc. are really all about, and raises questions over Aegon's identity--a particular type of "worldbuilding" that translates poorly to television and movies, as it would require characters to recite history lessons at the audience. Clunky exposition.
IMO, making a villain that the audience has been invested in from the very beginning - Cersei - Dany's primary obstacle in Westeros is not a mistake, and makes more sense than introducing Aegon VI and hoping that the audience will give a shit about him, in a story that has already done the "surprise, this character isn't actually dead!" thing a few too many times.