Very many valid points dude but this is the most important Myself, I read all five books in the space of twelve days, in between seasons 2 & 3 of the show. Consequently, Aegon never felt that "left-fieldy" to me, he just seemed like the natural reveal of "oh, so THIS is what Varys & Ilyrio have been up to all along". We could debate all day about what should and shouldn't get cut, in terms of adapting the books but I totally agree that making Cersei the primary antagonist for this season is completely the right call, what I & others are saying is that we feel that they've pulled Cersei's strength (& Dany's sudden weakness) "out of their asses" just as readily as you feel George pulled (f)Aegon out of his
We could debate all day about what should and shouldn't get cut, in terms of adapting the books but I totally agree that making Cersei the primary antagonist for this season is completely the right call, what I & others are saying is that we feel that they've pulled Cersei's strength (& Dany's sudden weakness) "out of their asses" just as readily as you feel George pulled (f)Aegon out of his
As with most things the show does, there's a strong element of the 'unearned' with their villains, as Euron's success is more than a little a reminiscent of Ramsay, twenty good men, etc.--things that likely would be more thought out in the hands of better writers...or, to be generous to D&D, a less insane production schedule. Thus, I understand the broader problems people have with the execution, as well as the show in general.
Nonetheless, I'm looking at this particular instance, and the "rocky start" to Dany's invasion, and I don't think the underlying ideas are misguided; the fact that she isn't sacking King's Landing is a continuation of Dany's themes within both the show and the books. Conquest ("fire and blood") is tempting, but is it the right path?
King's Landing is right there, but if she attacks now, she's just a Khaleesi attacking with her Khalasar, bringing more ruin to people that have already suffered under the "righteous causes" of various kings and queens. Similarly, she could unleash the dragons on Casterly Rock for a more decisive victory, but then she's just creating another Harrenhal.
From Tyrion's point of view, taking the Rock is appealing for two reasons. First, like Robb losing Winterfell, it undermines Cersei's credibility and the morale of her army. Second, Tyrion has an edge in attacking the Rock, so he thinks this represents a good start to their war.
Thus, I don't think Tyrion is being foolish, nor do I believe that his plan ultimately failing is an unearned victory for the Lannister faction--Tyrion is being Tyrion, and playing at being Lann the Clever, but he's going against legitimate, experienced battle commanders. Randyll most obviously, but lets not forget that Book Jamie embraced a little bit of his inner-Tywin to end the siege at Riverrun, so it's not as though he's unintelligent.
I don't think this is entirely about building up Cersei as a credible nemesis, I think part of it is about Tyrion trying (as much as possible) to not bring further ruin to the people that Dany aspires to rule, and Dany ultimately losing patience with that approach and embracing Fire and Blood--something that I think is meant to be viewed as horrifying, rather than glorious.
Well D&D are engaged in quite a bit of this right now, they are putting Cersei & Jaime (the heels) over as competent and adept leaders, suggesting that now they are out of their father's shadow they can finally shine and the writers are using Tyrion (the mega babyface) to "put them over". In other words, they have already established Tyrion's bona fides as an intelligent man so having Jaime & Cersei outmaneuver him makes them look even better. Problems
He outsmarted Stannis on the Blackwater.To me its not even a matter of Tyrion's military ability.His advice since Mereene with the Masters have been crap.Me miscalculated and misjudged every enemy and every situation.
I'm judging these things on a case-by-case basis, and independently of how bad the Harpy story was in season 6, I still don't feel that this episode represents Tyrion being an "idiot."
Keep in mind, he's not just going against the Lannisters, he's going against Randyll Tarly, a widely respected commander--the "finest soldier in the realm," as assessed by Kevan Lannister in the books, and the man he felt most suited to fill the vacuum left by Tywin's absence, and finish off House Lannister's remaining enemies.
To me, there's nothing inherently "wrong" about the idea that Tyrion would lose battles - to reiterate, it is less absurd than the canonical text premise that Tywin Lannister would consistently lose battles to a 14 year old who had never lead an army or even his own House until a few months prior to Eddard's imprisonment.
The more significant problem, perhaps, is that it comes on the heels of several seasons where Tyrion had very little to do, or was otherwise depicted poorly, which makes his failures in this episode look like the latest in a string of failures, rather than what it is intended to be: a surprise setback for Dany's intimidating coalition.
That's not ideal, but I disagree with criticisms that are rooted in the premise of what characters are "supposed to be;" Tyrion is smart, so he's not "supposed" to make mistakes...yet most of his ASOS arc is him discovering that, despite defining himself by his intellect, he is constantly outmaneuvered in the aftermath of the Blackwater, the lead up to Joffrey's death, during his trial, and in its aftermath. He spends an entire book as an unwitting pawn in the games that Tywin, Olenna, Littlefinger, Oberyn, and Varys are playing.
I still disagree.Tywin's failure was that he underestimated an unfamiliar foe.He no doubt believed that because Robb was untested he would lose against him.But Robb as an example proves my case.Robb was not battle tested but he used strategy and tactics that took advantage of his foe believing he would be to green.
Tyrion wasn't going up against unfamiliar foes.Nor was the mistakes he made anything but foolish.Tarly is irrelevant at this time because the tactic used by Jamie to out play him was one that Tyrion should have accounted for.It was a silly mistake in a list of silly mistakes.
Again I am not saying Tyrion is not capable of being out played.He certainly is but book Tyrion or even season 1 Tyrion wouldn't have done something silly as play cards your enemy knew you had and would play.
And that is the point I think a lot of us are trying to make.Tyrion knows Jamie and Cersie knows Tywin put him in charge of the sewer system.
That would have been a terrible plan to execute.
The moment you heard the Sandsnakes and the Greyjoys were taken out;don't be on a hill talking to Jon Snow...Yet.
Oh crap they are taking out our allies Oleana is in trouble.So what would be the proper advice to give then???
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
For me the whole Tyrion plan felt way too modern for the world of Westeros. I did not like the idea of being able to gain control of Westeros in some sort of nice way. It's like saying being starved to death in a siege by the neighbor you know is somehow a better way to die or be defeated than having a real fighting chance against foreign invaders. Either way, you are being conquered. For Dany and company, wouldn't it be smarter, more cost efficient, and protective of your resources (sorry, I'm an accountant) if you get in there and conquer as quickly as possible instead of trying to find a kinder, more gentler form of conquering? It was in stark contrast to last year's episode after Dany kills the Khals and Dario tells her she's a conquerer and she is looking like the cat that ate the canary and answers with something like I take what I want. Dario also told her in another season that she was the mother of dragons and she needed to show them and she whines that she cannot control them. This feels like a bit of a repeat of Dany's failures. On one hand she is telling Jon she WILL rule the seven kingdoms and on the other hand she's thinking she's got to find some sort of nice way to do that so that I do not hurt anyone's feelings. Trying to find that nice way of war is going to continue to make Tyrion look foolish.
We had sunshine in December and grew our roses in the snow.
For me the whole Tyrion plan felt way too modern for the world of Westeros. I did not like the idea of being able to gain control of Westeros in some sort of nice way. It's like saying being starved to death in a siege by the neighbor you know is somehow a better way to die or be defeated than having a real fighting chance against foreign invaders. Either way, you are being conquered. For Dany and company, wouldn't it be smarter, more cost efficient, and protective of your resources (sorry, I'm an accountant) if you get in there and conquer as quickly as possible instead of trying to find a kinder, more gentler form of conquering? It was in stark contrast to last year's episode after Dany kills the Khals and Dario tells her she's a conquerer and she is looking like the cat that ate the canary and answers with something like I take what I want. Dario also told her in another season that she was the mother of dragons and she needed to show them and she whines that she cannot control them. This feels like a bit of a repeat of Dany's failures. On one hand she is telling Jon she WILL rule the seven kingdoms and on the other hand she's thinking she's got to find some sort of nice way to do that so that I do not hurt anyone's feelings. Trying to find that nice way of war is going to continue to make Tyrion look foolish.
The entire concept is foolish.We believe book Tyrion is going to end up with Dany(Though he ends up with Aegon).What would he really advise her to do should he meet her?
look how he skilfully played Aegon.Causing him to want to look like a man in Aunty Danny's eyes.So what would he really do?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
How do you draw narrative tension out of a story that should "logically" end in Dany steamrolling the competition? For example, we're promised a second 'Dance of the Dragons,' but Dany has dragons, 8,000 Unsullied, and (eventually) tens of thousands of Dothraki...while Aegon has the Golden Company, and maybe Dorne. That's not much a dance.
While I'm sure GRRM will attempt to craft better military scenarios, I can't help but feel that we're still going to see some contrived losses for Dany, because the only alternative is that she wins, and wins, and wins, and wins...and then the Others come.
It's Euron she'll be dancing with, not Aegon. He has the dragon horn and his representative is conveniently in Meereen, where the dragons are. Not in Storm's End where they aren't. The latest TWOW chapter set up Euron as a truly terrifying villain. If he indeed teams up with the Lannisters, in addition to having a dragon and being a powerful sorcerer (along with Dany having lost at least one dragon), he could prove to be a significant challenge and put up a good fight.
Alternatively, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Dany does indeed win almost all battles and takes Westeros with relative ease. This is, after all, the most likely (and IMO the most realistic) scenario given the disparity in strength, at least in the present moment.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”