did Meera kill a ww? did she have an obsidian dagger or a valeryan steel sword?
She drops two wights with a normal sword (face palm) but the walker she kills with a dragonglass tipped spear. The CotF are using dragonglass weapons, arrows, daggers & spears, Meera picks up a spear after one of the singers gets killed and throws it at a WW and he does the shattering thing.
so it seems like complete inaction? his brother and his 10-13 companions have gone on a stupid quest (bring back a wight to Cersei, right? - as if she'd care...) and he has not said boo?
Not complete. He likes to creep people out now with his uncomfortably inconvenient moments of psychic privacy invasion. He's basically wikileaks.
But yeah, I can't imagine Cersei being very impressed with Jon's wight when she has Ser Gregor.
let's assume that at least he sent Ben 'coldhands' Jen to the rescue. Even if that is a script coincidence.
100% plot convenience, that. I can't give them the benefit of the doubt, but that sort of connection/relationship between Bran and Ben would certainly make sense.
What sucks, is that there's no more room for such intrigues. All characters simply apparate wherever they are necessary, and if ANY important characters are in trouble, you know someone's about to apparate into the scene and save Character X.
If Jon is Nissa Nissa, Alliser is Azor Ahai and the Thorne that was Promised shall be rising from the dead in Season 8 with Dawn in hand. Confirmed
Wasn't it Olly that got the heart shot ? The Orphan That Was Promised.... and Jon fucking hanged him !!! Lol, smooth move Ferguson.
Well, in the show, it is Olly who in fact kills Ygritte with an arrow shot (can't remember if the arrow goes through her heart, would have to look for that episode). Ygritte has been theorized by many to be Jon Snow's Nissa Nissa. He was supposed to kill Ygritte but did not, becoming her lover instead - a different sort of spearing.. and in the end, this same Olly finishes off Jon Snow with a knife wound to the heart.
In any case, that last scene does associate Jon Snow with Nissa Nissa, especially in view of Dany's dwelling on the subject of him being thrust in the heart and wondering what she thinks is a metaphor might mean. She knows now that it was no metaphor but very real. And it is Dany with her flaming dragon sword that takes on the role of Azor Ahai to save a bunch of doomed men in the snow. As mentioned in my previous post, this idea of trading places is well set up by the exchange between Arya and Sansa and there are echoes of it elsewhere in the text, especially in respect of Cersei and Jamie who you will recall looked so alike that Cersei often dressed up in his clothes. Like Arya, she was always aggrieved by the limitations imposed upon her by her gender. After demonstrating her fearlessness by petting a live lion, Cersei thinks it is she, rather than Jamie, who should have been given a sword. Arya and Cersei have a lot in common and both have achieved their goal. Cersei thinks to herself:
I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, the blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered Robert's drunken groping, Jaime's jealousy, Renly's mockery, Varys with his titters, Stannis endlessly grinding his teeth. She had contended with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and her vile, treacherous, murderous dwarf brother, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn. If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.
In the show at least, Cersei has overcome the limitations and is now queen while Arya, through her training is now able to take any persona or role she desires - even that of queen - of Lady of Winterfell if she so desires and she lets Sansa know this before relenting and handing her the knife. Sansa points out that Arya cannot imagine what she has experienced and we know Arya to have suffered equally along her own path. The conclusion is that they will never know but if they trade places, they would, which brings us back to Jon Snow experiencing the fate of Nissa Nissa and Daenerys acting out the path of Azor Ahai.
As Cersei tells Ned, she also thinks of herself and Jamie as one person in two bodies:
Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies.
The understanding would be that Jon and Dany are two parts that form a whole. In the esoteric sense each can be the other to experience the pain of the past. The two parts that make a whole are reflected again by their bonded familiar animals with Drogon as Dany's (Azor Ahai's) Nissa Nissa and Ghost as Jon's (Nissa Nissa's) Azor Ahai.
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"I would rather die than serve the Lannisters" ...literally served THE Lannister. I hope Arya has something up her sleeve and not just piss poor writing.
i believe this is the show showing us LF's spying on the two sisters, while obscuring their plotting against him with Bran. take a look at the arguments the sisters make against each other - arya, sansa looked pretty all dressed up there totally omits her pleas and cries for mercy at the Ned's beheading, sansa pretending to care about the faces and letter she was forced to write being in arya's possession. it is all performance art to lead Baelish into thinking he's driving a wedge between them, when they are just setting him up for the execution. Bran has been suspiciously absent, so i'm pretty sure this is all part of a trap to finally end Petyr's plotting.
If I favored RLJ, I would be very unsettled by the Infographic+Gilly, rather than reassured. It's like Littlefinger talking about the maester's copy of Sansa's raven scroll.
Exactly. It's not subtle and it's not a hint. It's flat out trolling and/or like waving a red flag in the viewers face. I can only conclude it's them super obviously leading the viewer to believe one thing, when it is not the case at all. I am surprised by how many people don't see it that way. Which is a bit egocentric of me, but still ...
That bizarre scene at the ToJ made me really question the parentage theories again. Before that, I was 50-60% RLJ, depending on the day. But that ToJ scene was odd. Just really odd! Especially since I doubted Lyanna was at the tower, but the show has changed major book idea's before, so I still was only a bit puzzled. But then that sloppy infographic leak a couple days later, and it suddenly seemed like the internet caught fire and this was treated as if GRRM himself had called a press conference to give up the ghost on one of his biggest plot mysteries. And I called "Bullshit". My RLJ plummeted down to about 10%, where it has continued to stay.
It contributed to 3 reread's since Season 6 ended. (yes, I have too much free time) and an alphabet soup of possibilities, but I decided to look into each of them with honest and serious intent. And I came away not an RLJer at all. I still give it 10% because I think every possibility really could be possible, but it's not likely. Unless GRRM isn't nearly the writer that I think he is. And I really doubt that is possible.
And no matter what the show tells us, or attempts to tell us, I refuse to believe it until I read it in GRRM's books. I am stubborn, like that!
Fuck. I forgot about Hardhome. That's right! A troop of wights should have collapsed once Jon cut down that white walker.
The level of sloppy plot holes they are throwing at us is almost unbelievable. So is it just that they don't care at all anymore, or are they just really careless?
A breakup would be cool. A death would be cooler. I'm hoping Jon has toxic sperm, or catches greyscale from Dany. LOL
No way it stays all cozy and loving between Jon and Dany. That would be terrible writing, in my opinion. They need some tension between them, and not the trumped-up faux-sexual kind.
No. You're not a fucktard, stdaga. It isn't fucktarded to watch Game of Thrones. We are book-deprived book-readers. We need nourishment. And while GoT has zero nutritional value, it is something we can consume until the next harvest.
This is true. And honestly, no matter how I am disapointed in most of the plot and character development this season, the visual's have been stunning. Except for no Ghost, I don't have to many complaints on how the season has "looked".
It's bad. Not only is Jon being stupidly and needlessly brave (wtf was he thinking running out into that horde?), we can see Kit's character relying upon plot armor. He knows he can do anything he wants because something stupid will keep him from consequence...
I love Jon's character so much, that this is the hardest part for me to sit and watch. I want to howl at the TV, like the direwolves do, when the show defames any sort of honest character motive or development of Jon! And I don't mind Kit as Jon, and I don't blame him. I blame this solely on Dave and Dan! I had hoped that Brian Cogman would help. He did not!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Odd that when they hurt their captive the other respond. Wouldn't that always be the case when they fight them? I don't recall seeing that in Hardhome. Change in the connections or theatrical addition?
The visual's this season have really been stunning, for the most part.
Aug 24, 2017 7:09:04 GMT -6 DarkSister1001 said:
"I would rather die than serve the Lannisters" ...literally served THE Lannister. I hope Arya has something up her sleeve and not just piss poor writing.
Good catch. So, did the show only remember the book plot, where Arya serves Roose, or is this another example of questionable show plot remembrance? Last year, I kept telling myself there was some hidden intent in some of the plot irregularities, especially with the Arya arc, but nothing ever came of that, and so this season, I really just have decided to take what they give us at face value ... piss poor writing!
Things you shouldn't do late at night #163: Start thinking & attempting to analyse Arya's Braavos plot. It. Makes. No. Sense. I think... I think it's the worst written bit of the show. The only way it may end up making sense is if the FM specifically needed Arya Stark for something. Fair's fair, if D&D end up paying off the Braavos plot in some way then it may actually end up being the best written part of the show.
I know, I hope they don't screw up Braavos the way they did with Dorne. That ended up being a complete waste of TV from series 3--->
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
The director admitted 2 big issues with thus episode. 1) The timing of Jon et al and Dany. Easy fix. Send a raven when they arrive at Eastwatch saying if she doesn't hear from them in so many days to come looking for them. 2) The NK not going for the easy kill of Drogon bc Drogon was already hit once thus season. Another easy fix. Have him aim for Drogon but Vis intercepts accidentally as he swoops down in between unknowingly sacrificing itself.
Too bad he didn't shine this input on the situation before the episode was filmed and aired.
This episode made me feel incredibly sad and I went off to bed feeling disgruntled trying to make sense of it all. Next day I watched it again and suddenly things seemed to come together. At the end I felt the episode can only be understood in terms of the back story.
This is some very impressive connection of dot's in the story. I would love it if there was that much thought to what we are seeing. Right now, I am a bit to jaded to think the show plot could be that deep. However, we can always hope!
Also, maybe you could submit this to HBO and maybe they can bring you on board to save Season 8. This idea has more meaning than anything I have seen in the last two or three seasons! #SaveSeason8
Bran says at some point that he needs to learn to see better, so I think he learning to process all the information that the 3 eyed raven downloaded into his head before he died, and how to use his third sight.
Actually this line by Bran really struck a bell with me. Thanks for reminding me. It's like Bran has all these scene's and images in his head, but cannot connect the dot's yet. Everything is just a jumbled mess in his head. And maybe, he is not even seeing the scene/vision's with clarity, leading to all sorts of possible misinterpretations until he "learn's to see better". This could be used by the show to eventually dig themselves out of a big hole.
In any case, that last scene does associate Jon Snow with Nissa Nissa, especially in view of Dany's dwelling on the subject of him being thrust in the heart and wondering what she thinks is a metaphor might mean. She knows now that it was no metaphor but very real. And it is Dany with her flaming dragon sword that takes on the role of Azor Ahai to save a bunch of doomed men in the snow.
Jon already took a dagger to the heart, so he should not have to again. Maybe eventually Dany would realize that she needs to make the ultimate sacrifice, like Jon did, and it will be Dany who bares her breast and takes a sword thrust into the heart. It's not the reverse of the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai story, but the actually repeat of it. This story is full of parallel's as well as inverse parallel's, so either could be possible.
But I still question that the show has that type of complexity in store for us at this point!
Also, Jon didn't knowingly take a knife in the heart, he was ambushed, set up by his "brothers", and did not see the dagger coming, or willingly bare his chest to the dagger. The show is trying to present his sacrifice almost as if he knew it was coming, and that is certainly not the case.
Not trying to bypass the Nissa Nissa idea you presented evolett , but this actually leads me to think how it culd be possible that Jon could actually take a second knife to the heart. The first was by his sworn "brothers", and the second will be by his actual brother. The show leaves us Bran, but in the books, wild Rickon is still an option. Or, depending on Jon's parentage reveal, another actual brother that is not a Stark, although the books foreshadow to me some sort of critical moment between Jon and Bran.
i believe this is the show showing us LF's spying on the two sisters, while obscuring their plotting against him with Bran. take a look at the arguments the sisters make against each other - arya, sansa looked pretty all dressed up there totally omits her pleas and cries for mercy at the Ned's beheading, sansa pretending to care about the faces and letter she was forced to write being in arya's possession. it is all performance art to lead Baelish into thinking he's driving a wedge between them, when they are just setting him up for the execution. Bran has been suspiciously absent, so i'm pretty sure this is all part of a trap to finally end Petyr's plotting.
I really hope this is how it works out. It would make sense, and help try to explain some of the oddness of Arya and Sansa's interactions. But I am just not sure I think the show has this nuance in it any more. Two weeks ago, I thought this was possible, but last week really made me doubt a joint plot by the Stark sisters. I will keep hoping, however!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
i believe this is the show showing us LF's spying on the two sisters, while obscuring their plotting against him with Bran. take a look at the arguments the sisters make against each other - arya, sansa looked pretty all dressed up there totally omits her pleas and cries for mercy at the Ned's beheading, sansa pretending to care about the faces and letter she was forced to write being in arya's possession. it is all performance art to lead Baelish into thinking he's driving a wedge between them, when they are just setting him up for the execution. Bran has been suspiciously absent, so i'm pretty sure this is all part of a trap to finally end Petyr's plotting.
That’s where I’m stuck. I’m optimistic but it’s wearing thin. Sometimes the comments about D&D make me uncomfortable bc like I said before, they have a monstrous task and they’re not GRRM. So I’ve looked at it from their perspective and even defended them. BUT the issues in this episode really stand out. I hope you’re right, but a girl is having a hard time staying positive.
I question if the show understands or remembers it's own "canon".
I really didn't understand that bc when they need to cauterize Thoros' wounds he has to run it across his palm. The shot of him taking his stance and it flaming up was great. I was talking to the hubs and I really feel like more and more they're substituting logic for cinematography. And I don't like it!
Good catch. So, did the show only remember the book plot, where Arya serves Roose, or is this another example of questionable show plot remembrance? Last year, I kept telling myself there was some hidden intent in some of the plot irregularities, especially with the Arya arc, but nothing ever came of that, and so this season, I really just have decided to take what they give us at face value ... piss poor writing!
I thought about that too but the Boltons were Stark enemies too. Shit, Sansa even brings it up when she's crying to LF about how she married into the 2 Houses that were the Starks biggest enemies. Really, really hoping this get rectified.
Mayhaps 10 episodes instead of 7 would have given them the time they needed to fill in all these holes!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I'm an RLJ whore at this point. I'll take it all! LOL
Haha! You can have it. I want no part of that show fluff!
There is so much beating us over the head with the Obvious Stick attempting to prove RLJ this season that there is no way they need to shit on book canon by claiming Jon doesn't look like Ned. If RLJ is the case, then one of the ironies about it is how much Jon is like the Neddard in looks and actions, but is not actually his son. I think it's just obvious thumbing their noses at book fans and probably GRRM, too!
I thought about that too but the Boltons were Stark enemies too. Shit, Sansa even brings it up when she's crying to LF about how she married into the 2 Houses that were the Starks biggest enemies. Really, really hoping this get rectified.
Well, at that time in the story, the Boltons were not known to be Stark enemies. Arya didn't know I don't think. She just barely gets a glimmer of her affianced Frey husband claiming he would need a new bride but it makes no sense to her, because she doesn't know she is the bride he just lost, and the actual Bolton betrayal had not occurred yet. As for the show, having Arya serve Tywin, and then conveniently forget was a huge plot hole. But that seems to be the theme of the season!
Also, maybe you could submit this to HBO and maybe they can bring you on board to save Season 8. This idea has more meaning than anything I have seen in the last two or three seasons! #SaveSeason8
Jon already took a dagger to the heart, so he should not have to again. Maybe eventually Dany would realize that she needs to make the ultimate sacrifice, like Jon did, and it will be Dany who bares her breast and takes a sword thrust into the heart. It's not the reverse of the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai story, but the actually repeat of it. This story is full of parallel's as well as inverse parallel's, so either could be possible.
But I still question that the show has that type of complexity in store for us at this point!
Also, Jon didn't knowingly take a knife in the heart, he was ambushed, set up by his "brothers", and did not see the dagger coming, or willingly bare his chest to the dagger. The show is trying to present his sacrifice almost as if he knew it was coming, and that is certainly not the case.
Not trying to bypass the Nissa Nissa idea you presented evolett , but this actually leads me to think how it culd be possible that Jon could actually take a second knife to the heart. The first was by his sworn "brothers", and the second will be by his actual brother. The show leaves us Bran, but in the books, wild Rickon is still an option. Or, depending on Jon's parentage reveal, another actual brother that is not a Stark, although the books foreshadow to me some sort of critical moment between Jon and Bran.
I see your point and have been mulling over this. However, I don't see Jon taking another thrust to the heart. One could argue that he willingly "bared his chest" by doing what many of his fellow brothers considered a betrayal of everything the NW stood for. Consorting with wildlings, letting them pass the Wall, allowing those willing to take the black, his dealings with Stannis and the straw that broke the camel's back - deciding to go after Ramsay Bolton. Jon knew of the opposition to his policies, had been warned of daggers in the dark by Melisandre, yet he proceeded. It seems to me he was prepared to take the consequences and as such willingly exposed himself to the knife. So, I think he's had his Nissa Nissa moment already. Dany is yet to have her Nissa Nissa moment though and here I would look to Jon's relationship with Ygritte for answers. If Show Dany and Jon become an item, then he is likely to break Dany's heart, just as he broke Ygritte's and thereby fulfill the Undying prophecy of Dany's betrayal for love. Another option would be Jon having to take Drogon out in the end, Dany's personal bonded child. Here I have to speculate. If Dany does sacrifice herself to take down the NK and Drogon somehow survives the battle, how will the dragon react? Go nuts methinks (there's the example of Dreamfyre flipping out after her rider's death). I don't see Valyrian steel as an effective weapon against a mad Drogon. It just might have to be DAWN.
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Exactly. It's not subtle and it's not a hint. It's flat out trolling and/or like waving a red flag in the viewers face.
Word. And the infographic wasn't leaked. It was published on their blog quite intentionally, and timed for maximum influence.
Thus the only surprising outcome for Show-Jon's parentage, is, R+L≠J.
No matter how you slice it, RLJ is not a theory in the show. It isn't a hint in the show. And there aren't clues for it in the show. It has been stated as explicitly as, if not more explicitly than, any So Spake Martin.
The Faithful should be worried. Not only are D&D not good at subtlety and nuance, they have shown us their modus operandi (as detailed by SlyWrenhere and here). And that M.O. is to lie. "Jon Snow is dead." Kit's gone. He won't be returning for Season 6. And Alfred. Fucking. Hunrith.
Rather than subvert readers' expectations with ever-present truths hidden in plain sight (like the clues leading up to the Red Wedding and the breadcrumbs telling us Lysa killed Jon Arryn), they simply come out and make false statements, and later admit "yeah, we were lying about all of that."
It's lame, but it's what they've demonstrated time and time again to be their method of *surprising* the viewership.
I really like this phrase. In this age of fluid genders, I can think of a few folks who fit this descriptor. Way off topic, and not at all your intent, I know... but dayum.
This is true. And honestly, no matter how I am disapointed in most of the plot and character development this season, the visual's have been stunning. Except for no Ghost, I don't have to many complaints on how the season has "looked".
Mostly agree. Most of the visuals are great, and better than many high budget motion pictures.
But... Ghost isn't alone... There was the Cave of Exposition... The crude castle of Dragonstone – supposed home of the Royal Family... The Poop-Soup Montage... The Missandei-Grey Worm "sex" scene...
Still, the great moments have been epic enough to overlook a lot of the not-great. The Field of Fire 2.0 was very well done. Bronn & Jaime should have died, but the visuals were certainly on point.
I love Jon's character so much, that this is the hardest part for me to sit and watch. I want to howl at the TV, like the direwolves do, when the show defames any sort of honest character motive or development of Jon! And I don't mind Kit as Jon, and I don't blame him. I blame this solely on Dave and Dan! I had hoped that Brian Cogman would help. He did not!
Preach! Jon and Tyrion are leading the contest for worst writing this season. Arya and Sansa are competing too, but only with each other.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."