Word. And the infographic wasn't leaked. It was published on their blog quite intentionally, and timed for maximum influence.
Thus the only surprising outcome for Show-Jon's parentage, is, R+L≠J.
No matter how you slice it, RLJ is not a theory in the show. It isn't a hint in the show. And there aren't clues for it in the show. It has been stated as explicitly as, if not more explicitly than, any So Spake Martin.
Couldn't agree more. The only thing we know for sure is that the Citadel has 15782 steps.
It seems to me that the message here is not to jump to conclusions.
My take on the scene – Sam’s equating the 15782 tower steps with “bullshit” is a clue, the windowless Sept is a clue. Gilly’s baby is a clue. There’s definitely a baby involved. In the previous scene, Jon quotes the famous words “I wish you good fortune in the words to come,” previous citers being Mance and Arthur Dayne. Mance was burned on the show, Arthur was stabbed in the back. Kind of rings a bell. The Sept, blown up by wildfire reminds us of Aerys as does the burning of Mance. So does Arthur being stabbed in the back - the act by Howland that mirror's Jamie killing Aerys. Sam ends the annulment scene by quoting his father, who as we know ends up as dragontoast. Another hint in that direction.
I can see this turning into the mad king being Jon’s father.
Who knows? Rhaegar marries Lyanna in secret, mad Aerys finds out and makes use of a Lord’s right to the first night ... that would mirror Roose/Ramsay and what Aerys himself would have liked back when Tywin married Joanna.
15782 steps.
Quirky Seasons: Under the sea, men marry fishes More on bluewinterroses.com
I don't see Valyrian steel as an effective weapon against a mad Drogon. It just might have to be DAWN.
It would be great to have Dawn have some concrete purpose in the story! Forged from a falling meteor/star, and what else flies in the sky breathing/trailing fire, but a dragon. I like it.
And the infographic wasn't leaked. It was published on their blog quite intentionally, and timed for maximum influence.
Absolutely! But I am thankful, because it finally made me decide to look into some of the characters parentage in depth and with a fresh eye. So I am thankful, as much as the infographic irritated me then and now! I actually have it saved on my phone, and sometimes I look at it, and get pissed up about how stupid it is all over again! It's a weird form of therapy I think!
But... Ghost isn't alone... There was the Cave of Exposition... The crude castle of Dragonstone – supposed home of the Royal Family... The Poop-Soup Montage... The Missandei-Grey Worm "sex" scene...
Still, the great moments have been epic enough to overlook a lot of the not-great. The Field of Fire 2.0 was very well done. Bronn & Jaime should have died, but the visuals were certainly on point.
There has been both good and bad. The field of fire/Loot Train was really rather amazing to watch. But all of the plot armor has been distracting. Not even any believability to it anymore. It was apparent with Jon in the BotB's, but he had just been resurrected. But now everyone has it. I wonder if Gendry was making that plot armor in Kings Landing while he wasn't making Lannister swords?
We used to dread that anyone could die any given moment, and now we doubt that anyone could die, even if a dragon fell from the sky and landed on them in a ball of flame!
"I would rather die than serve the Lannisters" ...literally served THE Lannister. I hope Arya has something up her sleeve and not just piss poor writing.
i believe this is the show showing us LF's spying on the two sisters, while obscuring their plotting against him with Bran. take a look at the arguments the sisters make against each other - arya, sansa looked pretty all dressed up there totally omits her pleas and cries for mercy at the Ned's beheading, sansa pretending to care about the faces and letter she was forced to write being in arya's possession. it is all performance art to lead Baelish into thinking he's driving a wedge between them, when they are just setting him up for the execution. Bran has been suspiciously absent, so i'm pretty sure this is all part of a trap to finally end Petyr's plotting.
I'm beginning to come round to this idea. I think that in addition to Bran, there's gonna be some face swapping shenanigans coming into play.
Last Edit: Aug 24, 2017 20:53:12 GMT by pieceofgosa
I was talking to the hubs and I really feel like more and more they're substituting logic for cinematography. And I don't like it!
i dunno, i've kind of given up on them having any sort of logic or storytelling sense, so i just want to see cool shit (kindof a movie take on the Brust theory of writing, "Write cool shit"). i just want the conclusion of this story. i've done enough theory reading and webcrawling over ideas to not care anymore how it occurs as long as i get the end of the story...
i've done enough theory reading and webcrawling over ideas to not care anymore how it occurs as long as i get the end of the story...
I think most of us feel that way. And I agree that an ending from HBO is better than no ending at all... but you don't really think their ending is/will be the end of the story, do you?
I think the end of the show will mark the beginning of a very interesting age for the ASoIaF community. We will know what HBO did, and still be left wondering what GRRM will do. Many things we will have seen will make sense, particularly for Unsullied/Shownly fans. But for we readers of the world's most famous incomplete fantasy series, I don't think HBO will provide much in the way of satisfaction, nor resolution.
Varys has just killed Kevan, and a man called Aegon Targaryen is rallying houses to his cause. Jon is bleeding in the snow, and Dany is eating charred horsemeat with Drogon. A Faceless Man is hanging out with Alleras/Sarella Sand and Archmaester Marwyn. Euron has a horn that controls dragons and Valyrian Steel armor. Lady Stoneheart is hanging people in the woods. The glass candles are burning, and winter is coming.
The show has gone off the rails so badly that it skipped over all the really intriguing stuff driving the (actual) plot forward. Granted, the rails vanished after the fifth book... but... how do you even manage to make Jon Snow's death and resurrection seem devoid of consequence? How do you tell a story inspired by the mental image of wolf pups in the snow, without direwolves?
I know I'm preaching to the choir. so I apologize for the soapbox, but, the show isn't advancing the story any more than the So Spake Martins are. It will give us no satisfaction. It is a way to pass the time until Quentin Tarantino finishes The Winds of Winter for us. You heard it here first...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I know I'm preaching to the choir. so I apologize for the soapbox, but, the show isn't advancing the story any more than the So Spake Martins are. It will give us no satisfaction. It is a way to pass the time until Quentin Tarantino finishes The Winds of Winter for us. You heard it here first...
but you don't really think their ending is/will be the end of the story, do you?
it will be AN ending, not necessarily THE ending.
yeah, the books have many different plot cliffhangers, but the overall song of ice and fire can't end differently in the show than the books imo. the books will certainly take a more satisfying path to the conclusion (assuming they are ever finished, which i'm certainly in doubt of), but i think that the war for dawn will end similarly in both mediums.
I was trying to search voice's old threads re: Bran=NK. I don't think he came up with it, it might've been on Heresy in Westeros, but his old signature I think supported it from Old Nan's stories: "mayhaps his name was Brandon".
so Old Nan may have started the theory back in '96.
I'm not a fan of the idea that our Sweet Summer Bran is the Night's King, but yes @treyman16 , I am a huge fan of the idea that Bran the Builder is the Night's King. That theory is here: How Ice Became Dawn But this one from armstark might be more up your alley: The Night's King and his tower.
Yeah the more I thought about it, the less likely it seems to be true in the books or show
I actually wouldn't mind seeing a kraken pull a dragon out of the sky, but I am kind of an asshole! The tears people would cry ... well it might flood the whole world and drown humanity!
It would be glorious--though I'm thinking it' might take a fight.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
True. But I don't think this is their plan with Sansa. I think they just don't know what else to do with her, or, don't want to do anything else with her. And, I can't help but think it's the latter. They like seeing Sophie in pain. Compare the amount of screentime she's had smiling, to the amount of screentime she's had looking utterly miserable/broken/tormented/raped/the list goes on... and you have yourself some serious disparity.
Book Sansa hasn't lived a charmed life, but she even when things were at their worst, she's always tried to exude charm. Such niceties were her armor. Now that she's armored in Alayne, she's developing some serious swagger.
1. Agreed.
2. I also think part of the problem is that they brought her north way too soon. They showed she can take on Baelish and control the Vale Lords with fabulous crying and sweet-face-i-ness. Clear as day--in a pretty good scene for that actress--she's no genius, but pretty good in that scene.
Then--they morphed her into Jeyne and screwed it all up.
Now, three seasons later, they will have her confront Baelish again and take him down. Good. But they didn't have to brutalize her and her actual growth to get this done. Stupid.
And this is what really bothers me. I don't like the idea of becoming bored with abuse and torture. Those things should be shocking. We should have been shocked that Arya would torment her sister after their reunion. But we weren't. We're used to watching Sansa grimace in pain and fear. And now, we can only be surprised when she appears confident.
And that is so very fucked up.
Yup.
They did cut a lot of the actual torture porn this season--I was really worried when they kept hyping Euron's horribleness. But NO need for the drama with Arya. Stupid.
Theon, yes. Alfie Allen is the best actor in the show imo, particularly in that season. I think they've wasted his character in S7.
1. Yes.
2. Reminded me of two other big impact/consequence deaths in seasons 3.
Ser Roderick, in the rain, smiling to Bran and Rickon, saying "Don't cry, I'm going to see your father" as the boys scream for Theon to stop. So much pain.
And Luwin's death--the boys come out of the crypts with the wolves (BECAUSE THE WOLVES MATTER!!!!), Rick runs to Luwin, who reaches out for him and Bran, beaming. Saying, "I feel just fine."
Beautiful, painful scenes--tied to Theon's really good scene with Luwin during the siege. So much impact. So much consequence for actions.
The wight hunt. . . . nothing. Just nothing but an exchange of weaponry. No gravitas. No heft. Nothing.
I don't think that's wishful thinking at all. If their intent it to surprise audiences, RLJ isn't the way to do it. The only thing surprising about RLJ, especially now, is that anyone would be surprised.
While D&D are not GRRM, are are not as subtle in their delivery, they do like twists and surprises.
If I favored RLJ, I would be very unsettled by the Infographic+Gilly, rather than reassured. It's like Littlefinger talking about the maester's copy of Sansa's raven scroll.
It's not a twist if you want Arya to find it, and HBO wanted (INTERNET) fans to see RLJ. Unsullied Non-internet fans do not see RLJ. Even now...
This. I know that RLJ confirmation is very likely at this point.
But something stinks in the set up--where have they EVER trolled like this before a big reveal? Some big reveals came out of nowhere:
Craster's babies and the white walkers had little set up.
Valyrian steel and Walkers--kinda in books, but not set up in show.
Kill a walker and you'll kill the wights? That was so not set up, they actually didn't show it when Jon killed a walker. Or when Meera did it.
Children made the Walkers? I can't think of ANY lead in in the show.
Bran can affect the past via Hold the Door and talking to young Ned? It's a pint they made twice--no set up.
Some things has had subtle set-up.
But the open active trolling they've been doing at least since Daario's bouquet in the FIRST episode in season 4.
And then the R+L= Ralph Lauren Polo in January 2015.
And a bunch of stuff since--either these guys were trying to show off for book fans well ahead of time, or they are trolling.
Not at all sure what's up at this point, but something stinks.
If Bran told Jon in robot-voice that his father had killed Jon's father at the tower of joy, that would be a helluva way to reveal Jon's parentage. It would accomplish quite a bit, beyond our (we Dayne-o-philes') immediate satisfaction.
Especially since Bran told Osha the "story" in season one.
I'm also thinking, since Bran has been quoting other people's speeches, we may get a revisiting of "love is the death of duty"--whatever the reveal.
1. It would surprise Unsullied Non-internet fans, but they would UNDERSTAND it. 2. It would surprise the hardcore internet fandom, and we would UNDERSTAND it too. 3. Rather than end the penultimate season with something as unsurprising as RLJ, which had a soft-reveal a year ago, they leave casual and hardcore fans alike shocked and wanting more.
Internet=Broke
Yup.
I've already seen people asking--wait, he's a Targ? He's the rightful king? How does that help?
If he is Rhaegar's kid in the show, they will still have to answer that question--given that they just showed us dragons aren't all that helpful, makes me wonder if 2 Targs are helpful.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Are they trying to give Martin time for his next book????
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
i've done enough theory reading and webcrawling over ideas to not care anymore how it occurs as long as i get the end of the story...
I think most of us feel that way. And I agree that an ending from HBO is better than no ending at all... but you don't really think their ending is/will be the end of the story, do you?
I think the end of the show will mark the beginning of a very interesting age for the ASoIaF community. We will know what HBO did, and still be left wondering what GRRM will do. Many things we will have seen will make sense, particularly for Unsullied/Shownly fans. But for we readers of the world's most famous incomplete fantasy series, I don't think HBO will provide much in the way of satisfaction, nor resolution.
Varys has just killed Kevan, and a man called Aegon Targaryen is rallying houses to his cause. Jon is bleeding in the snow, and Dany is eating charred horsemeat with Drogon. A Faceless Man is hanging out with Alleras/Sarella Sand and Archmaester Marwyn. Euron has a horn that controls dragons and Valyrian Steel armor. Lady Stoneheart is hanging people in the woods. The glass candles are burning, and winter is coming.
The show has gone off the rails so badly that it skipped over all the really intriguing stuff driving the (actual) plot forward. Granted, the rails vanished after the fifth book... but... how do you even manage to make Jon Snow's death and resurrection seem devoid of consequence? How do you tell a story inspired by the mental image of wolf pups in the snow, without direwolves?
I know I'm preaching to the choir. so I apologize for the soapbox, but, the show isn't advancing the story any more than the So Spake Martins are. It will give us no satisfaction. It is a way to pass the time until Quentin Tarantino finishes The Winds of Winter for us. You heard it here first...
Isnt it wonderful how he can't monitor Twitter the way he could with LJ?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Ser Roderick, in the rain, smiling to Bran and Rickon, saying "Don't cry, I'm going to see your father" as the boys scream for Theon to stop. So much pain.
And Luwin's death--the boys come out of the crypts with the wolves (BECAUSE THE WOLVES MATTER!!!!), Rick runs to Luwin, who reaches out for him and Bran, beaming. Saying, "I feel just fine."
Beautiful, painful scenes--tied to Theon's really good scene with Luwin during the siege. So much impact. So much consequence for actions.
The wight hunt. . . . nothing. Just nothing but an exchange of weaponry. No gravitas. No heft. Nothing.
Beautiful indeed.
Someone asked if this season can be saved, and while something as powerful as those moments would certainly help, I don't think, in light of those same powerful moments, that it can be.
The show just doesn't have the same gravitas that it used to.
Especially since Bran told Osha the "story" in season one.
I'm also thinking, since Bran has been quoting other people's speeches, we may get a revisiting of "love is the death of duty"--whatever the reveal.
That would be cool. Makes sense.
(Here's hoping we also get a flashback of Jory's "born with the dead" quote, and some emphasis on Lyanna's sacrifice that connects her to the Mamma Wolf.)
I've already seen people asking--wait, he's a Targ? He's the rightful king? How does that help?
If he is Rhaegar's kid in the show, they will still have to answer that question--given that they just showed us dragons aren't all that helpful, makes me wonder if 2 Targs are helpful.
It's dumb. And they still have a whole new season to force feed benevolent dragons to us, if this is the case.
2. I also think part of the problem is that they brought her north way too soon. They showed she can take on Baelish and control the Vale Lords with fabulous crying and sweet-face-i-ness. Clear as day--in a pretty good scene for that actress--she's no genius, but pretty good in that scene.
Then--they morphed her into Jeyne and screwed it all up.
Now, three seasons later, they will have her confront Baelish again and take him down. Good. But they didn't have to brutalize her and her actual growth to get this done. Stupid.
So stupid. And in my opinion, it really shows us how much they got off on torturing Sophie Turner. Again, I hope the FBI is keeping an eye on them.
They did cut a lot of the actual torture porn this season--I was really worried when they kept hyping Euron's horribleness. But NO need for the drama with Arya. Stupid.
That they would use her own sister for this purpose bothers me almost as much as the fact that they keep torturing her. I can't decide which is worse. Here's hoping they are done with that trope sooner than later. Jon still hasn't tortured Sansa. Dany still hasn't. Who knows what they have planned for Season 8.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."