1.22 Arya II

For me the most logical is that he wanted her as POV there. If I look as character, I have a hard time getting past the feeling that she'd do almost anything to avoid getting back to Winterfell and barely stomached her trip to White Harbour and Moat Cailin. It's one of the things that are hard to un-see. But to repeat myself, I try to give her a fair chance this time around.


Oh, he does come up with crazy shit! So in that sense it's not impossible for him to do this. I just find it taking things a bit far for now.

This is similar to Jaime giving Brienne a sword and many people can look at that with sexual undertones. Now, whether it hints to us of Jon/Jaime's feelings, or of Arya/Brienne's feelings, as being intentional or unintentional, that is probably going to be argued forever.

Now, this idea of Jon pledging himself to Arya, as symbolic from GRRM, even if Jon and Arya are not aware of the meaning, I can see. As to Jon not having sex with anyone else, he already did with Ygritte, and very well might with Val, however, I am not sure how engaged his heart was in those actions. Lust, yes; love, not sure! And the idea of Arya being the "owner" of Jon's phallus is really interesting concept, and one that I could agree with. The sword Jon gives Arya is taken from her at one time (does this mesh with the time Jon spends with Ygritte?) and she eventually get's back, and is the one connection she has that she is unwilling to set aside at a later time.

It also reminds me of Cat looking down an Ned's bones, noting that Ice was not returned with the body. Ice to Ned's remains is very phallic, and perhaps is a reminder of the sword that Jon and Arya shared, and that Ned gave back to her, as a blessing for training to be a swordsman, but on another level, perhaps a blessing of an incestuous relationship. (I know this is a huge leap, but we certainly don't see Ned in a huge tizzy over Cersei and Jaime's incest, except for the politics of what it means to Robert's crown).

The Ned missing Ice/phallus reminds me very much of the story of Osiris being cut apart by Set, and when Isis gather's his remains, his phallus is missing. So Isis makes a golden phallus, brings Osiris back to life long enough for a conception of the god Horus. Ned's sword is reforged into two swords, possibly Ice will remain as two swords, and possibly it will be reforged into a new version of Ice (?). Osiris and Isis were siblings in mythology, and this could translated to Lyanna/one of her brothers (I think it is Ned because of the symbolism surrounding Ned and his sword, among other things) or Jon/Arya. To be fair, Brandon Stark has some sword symbolism, as well, a bloody sword, but it's not Ice, the family sword!

I think in the case of Ned and Cat, Catelyn is serving as a surrogate for Lyanna gazing down on Ned's remains. The child of Osiris and Isis is Horus the Younger, and this Horus is eventually noted for defeating Set, and in some traditions eventually wearing a crown that unites northern and southern Egypt. This version of Horus is also noted to be connected to the rising sun, and Horus is also associated with the sun and the moon in each eye. However, Horus is also associated strongly with a falcon, and I can see none of that in Jon, at least not yet. Unless we note that Jon might have been named for Jon Arryn, and that has strong Falcon symbolism, but I am not sold on Jon being named for Jon Arryn, rather I think he is named for King Jon Stark, of the Wolf's Den legend.

As to this whole concept being an echo of Lyanna, I would agree, although I think there are many possible path's this idea could take. Possibly to one of the Stark brother's, or possibly to Ser Arthur Dayne, who is certainly associated with a sword. Although, it seems like Ned ends up with that sword, so does that make Ned a villain (Set) in the story of Lyanna and Arthur (Isis and Osiris)? But then we are told that Ned returns that sword, which was something the Lannister's never did with Ice.

GRRM never seems to take a myth and appy it directly to the story, he has to twist and alter it, so it makes finding a direct parallel very difficult.


I too see the Morningstar comment about Arthur, but how it is applied is the hard part. Did Lyanna turn to Arthur for protection, did they become lovers, did she hide SAD under her pillow to hide him as Arya would do with her weapon. And how is Ned translating what he knows of the past into the current story of Arya?


Possibly! GRRM does seem to like to give power to the women in his story, and could give Arya the means to be independent.


Because Ned and Jon do have the Stark long face, but are not described as horse-faced, is what makes me wonder if this is a hint of something in Arya's story. Barbrey Dustin. She seems to hate Ned. Jon know's that Gilly will hate him forever for taking her child away from her. It leads me to think that Ned took a child from Barbrey. Now, in my tinfoil, that child is Arya, who is linked to horses with her nickname, and Barbrey is a Ryswell, who are linked to horses in the story, through actions and their sigil.

However, Jon takes a child from Gilly that isn't his own. So, this could translate to Ned taking a child from Barbrey that wasn't his own, which could imply Jon, who I think has some small chance of being Brandon's bastard by Barbrey. But that does not work with Arya's "horseface" nickname. Or the idea that Jon's parentage can be figured out in the first book, as Barbrey Dustin has no mention in Game.

And, yes, the nickname could be just a coincidence and an example of Sansa or Jeyne Poole being mean to Arya, but I can't help but think that this things could be parentage hints from our author.

I admit this parentage reread has sent me down multiple rabbit holes of wild speculation!


You are correct. Meera's telling of Howlands version of the Harrenhal story does tell us that the prince sang a sad song that made the wolf maid sniffle, so we are told to think that way. Which actually makes me trust that concept even less now. Or at least the implication is that the song made Lyanna cry tears of love or even sadness, but that might not be the case. As we see in this story, Arya cries tears several times, in sadness and for love, but also in anger and frustration. I wonder how Arya's tears over Mycah could translate to Lyanna's tears at Harrenhal?


Exactly. Arya hears sad stories/songs and wonder's why the heroine act's so stupidly for crying, (or jumping out of a tower), she doesn't cry over those stories. She does cry, however, and while I think that Sansa's storyline is telling us something about Lyanna, I think that Arya is the Stark daughter that we need to take into consideration when trying to piece together the wolf-blooded Lyanna's story. If only we know the lyric's to Rhaegar's song!


Maybe Ned's actions with Arya do tell us something about Dawn, and how/why Ned returned the sword. I hadn't considered that!


Perhaps Shae's story, IF she is getting details confused or muddled, is an example of the story we think we know of Lyanna becoming confused or muddled over time?

Haha! Luwin does have grey eyes, after all! Know's the Stark history very well. Wear's grey and crawls to the heart tree to die! 

I'm not ignoring this theory, I just don't have much to add. I think it's as good as any theory I've heard about Dustin.

While I agree that the narrative image is planted for the reader, I think on some level both Jon and Jaime know exactly what they are doing. They are not naive, and they know the implications of a sword (and sheath). It is certainly worth thinking about. Needles sheath is grey leather as supple as sin! Whoa! While Othkeeper's scabbord is described as "ornate" and for a good portion of her journey through the riverlands, Brienne keep's it hidden from site. I think this implies something about Brienne, perhaps something ornate that is hidden unless she chooses to reveal it. I could be full on crazy at this point! 



The celibacy issue is interesting, and one that I didn't consider. Of course, Jaime didn't really stick to his vow of celibacy and has been having sex with Cersei for years. He seems to have no remorse about cuckholding Robert! In both cases, Jon with Ygritte and Cersei with Jaime, it is the men who were seduced by the women, the men who gave in to the pressures of another. Jon feel's guilt over his vows (which doesn't stop him from enjoying it, and who can blame him), but I never get that impression from Jaime. Perhaps he had guilt once upon a time, but that time is now in the past. However, they can use this vow of celibacy as a means of protecting themselves from other lustful encounters.


I would like to claim this is my original thought, but I came across the concept in discussion several years ago on the W. There are some very good thinker's over there. I think in might have been discussed in a sweetsunray post about Ned as lord of the underworld, but I might be mixing that up in my head. Anyway, it's an interesting concept. The Jon stuff I have peppered in myself, after I came to really except all the incest in the story and the possibility of more. Time will tell if this is how the story is intended



So true on both accounts!


I would agree absolutely that the reason that Lyanna was crying at Harrenhal had nothing to do with Rhaegar's song. We have two options when looking at Arya and Sansa's arcs. They both do impulsive stuff that leads to trouble, only Arya seems to feel sorrow about it and recognize her culpability, while Sansa does not and tends to blame those around her and never herself. So, in Arya's situation after the mess that was created by her sword practice with Mycah might mirror an equally impulsive act from Lyanna that had great and sorrowful reactions.

My other option about Lyanna's crying at Harrenhal was that if the song was about love, and Lyanna felt like someone she loved was paying particular attention to another woman, it might make her feel angry. But in this case, I think Lyanna is just as likely to feel anger as sorrow, so I find it less likely.

More clues to this will appear in Winds, but I won't spoil it here! So something to look forward to.

Recently in discussion (I cannot for the life of me remember what thread) there was discussion about the imagery in the toj fever dream, and both the idea that from Ned's perspective, Dawn was "alive with light" as well as what he dreams as Lyanna's voice screaming might have actually been a sound that the sword Dawn was making. Some of this speculation came from the sound the Other's sword made during the sword battle with Ser Waymar Royce, and it is possible that Dawn is not like the Other's swords at all. But it could be ...

Jaime remember's Dawn as a white blade and very sharp, but he never seems to report that the blade was anything like "alive with light" or making noise, which makes me think that something special happened with Dawn at the toj. In Ned's dreams it is the blade that is alive with light, not the hilt, which is mentioned earlier in the dream. The speculation in part of that discussion was that perhaps the sword might have recognized Eddard, which is one of the reasons that SAD might have had a "sad smile" upon his lips. Perhaps Arthur realized that the sword was picking a new man to wield it, and that by returning Dawn to Starfall, then Ned rejected the sword. 

Now, I don't personally believe that Dawn is at Starfall, despite what the book tells us and the SSM from Martin, but I admit to being ridiculously stubborn about this issue. Perhaps because from early in my first read of Game, I decided that Dawn was in the crypts, and that it was what was calling to Jon, and perhaps giving Ned such restless sleep for years. So, I am not sure that I buy this concept that Ned brought on the beginnings of the Long Night 2.0 by rejecting the blade, but I suppose it could still be considered rejected even if it was buried in the crypts.

A small part of me does think that Ned returned the blade, but if he did, not that I question his honor, but I think he might have used it for a bargaining chip to get something else in return. Something that was at Starfall, and important. Many people speculate this thing could have been baby Jon, and it's possible. Not my favorite theory personally, (as I think Jon was born in the north) but I can see it fitting the story that we have been told so far. Or another infant that is around Jon's age. Again, that is all speculation.

Perhaps I am being overly sensitive toward Ned here, but I don't think a person such as he would "not have what it takes" to wield Dawn. In general no one seems to doubt the honor of Eddard Stark, several people even mock Ned for his honor. And he must have enough skill to get the job done with a sword since he didn't manage to get himself killed during two wars. I am not saying he was as good as Arthur or Barristan, but I doubt he is a poor swordsman, either.  Especially if Dawn was a Stark sword long, long before it ever belonged to the Dawn family. If the Dayne's actually gained the sword from a "fallen star(k)", then I see no reason that the sword might not chose another of Stark blood to carry it.

Of course, this idea is based on the sword choosing who will wield it, and that is all speculation. We have no idea about how the Sword of the Morning is chosen. Perhaps every 20 years or so, all the men of Dayne blood get together and draw straw's to see who is the next SotM? It might be just as simple as beating the current SotM in armed combat, which is what it seems like the Smiling Knight was trying to do. So, if this is what happened at the toj, Ned beating Arthur with Howland Reed somehow playing a part, then perhaps Ned did reject the sword because of some assistance rendered from the crannogman. And perhaps this did set the whole LN2.0 into motion. Not saying it's not possible, just not my personal favorite theory.

If Ned did return the sword, just as we are told, what do you think he thought might happen if he didn't return the sword? What is the worse scenario that Ned could have foreseen? After all, we know that Ned isn't a person who seems to put faith in signs, and even though I like to doubt much of Catelyn's inner monologue, it truly seems like Ned didn't recognize that the direwolf pups were a gift from the gods until he heard that Bran's wolf had saved him. Only then did he seem to regret killing Lady. So, it could not have been superstition that would cause Ned to think something bad might happen if he didn't return Dawn. So what would have been Ned's motivation if not honor or not a bargaining chip? Asking because it is something I have thought about, but really can't come up with something to convince myself.

Gods! I misread your post at first and had to rewrite it... This is taking forever!


Well, to start with the brotherhood. He didn't just use his sword to defeat them. They were protected by the smallfolks and hard to find, so (in Jamies words):


It's not just about being a formidable warrior/knight/swordsman, it's about being a formidable man. It's not unusual for the smallfolks to be treated badly, and in this case what we see him do here would probably be in keeping with Sansa's criteria for a "true knight".

As for the underlined part with Aerys, it's the only time so far in the story we see Aerys being influenced by one of his kingsguards. I think there is a reason for this, and it stands out to me. Right now I'm not sure how much of the bad relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys in mentioned in the books, and how much is in my mind from the World book, but if their relationship really was bad, perhaps Arthur nudged Aerys enough in Rhaegar's direction to not disinherit him? I'm only speculating here, as I'm not sure what was going on between them.

As for causing fear, apprehension, or dread helping Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Well, I have problems with just using that one definition here to be honest, and to just see it in terms of his prowess as a warrior/knight. It's too narrow for me by far. With the other parts of the definition being inspiring awe, admiration, or wonder; or difficult to undertake, surmount, or defeat; the combination is all parts of having authority. He seems to have had that, and it's imo needed in his position.
Rhaegar would've gained by having him at his side in the same manner many hoped to get Barristan on their side after his dismissal from the KG. It's part of the package so to speak.
Also, any ruler who wants to keep his position needs to be able to inforce his rule, also with fear, apprehension and dread. With no consequences there is no stability, and he would need people to do that for him as well. It's not all there is to keep one's rule of course, but it's part of it. And it's not always for the bad either.
That is keeping aside Arthur's task of keeping Rhaegar safe if needed when on duty, of course.

How Lyanna would gain from that? Would depend on what happened to her. If she came into view for Aerys, perhaps he used his influence so Aerys didn't do anything? Or if someone else had it out for her at the tourney (hint: squires, a drunk Robert) and tried something, if Arthur was near he could use this to interviene and stop it. If something else happened when Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped her, say someone else trying to take her, he would most certainly need fear, apprehension or dread to get her out of it. And probably use it. The same if he kept her safe during the rebellion, if situations arose.

Yes, they died (or at least two of them) but I don't really see what that has to do with this. Dawn wasn't long enough to reach over to another part of the country where Rhaegar fought and died, and we don't know what killed Lyanna (if baby, who put it in there). Even formidable people isn't all powerfull.


Well, this is what I'm trying to figure out here. I'm playing with the posibilities we get from the text, trying to find something that fits with what we know. Even if we get just about only total admiration for him doesn't mean I believe it all. But I also don't dismiss it out of hand because it's one sided. I know he's grey as the rest of them, even if he did wear a white armor.