Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven.

So, to tie this back to that pesky comma I mentioned at the top! And this is in the generic use of the term. "A thousand eyes, [comma] and one" is used by Westerosi big and small, educated and not. As Brynden himself only has one eye (another thing pointed out several times in Dunk and Egg), and an unknown number of spies, I think it can be "translated" into something like "a thousand spies, and one eye". In the cave, Brynden claims all those eyes as his own. But of course, now his abilities are way stronger than they were when he was quick! In a way you could say he really has a thousand eyes and one! Even if he's confined to see through trees, he has an untold number of them to see through. He also have ravens at his disposal, and the gods only know how many of those there are... So one meaning all those years ago, and a slightly different meaning now.

Interesting stuff! Nice little rabbit hole you fell into!

Well, I can't see past that this godswood was planted by Targaryens. And no pun intended there!

Other than that, for now I can only re-mention Sansa's thoughts of there being "a thousand unseen eyes" in that godswood, which is a rather interesting phrase!

I do wonder about this godswood at the Red Keep. The Red Keep is built on Aegon's High Hill but not completed until Maegor's reign, and before the Red Keep was built, the Aegonfort was built, and I think it was built very early in Aegon's conquest. Perhaps before he had done much more than capture the hill itself. So, when did the godswood come into play? Was it planted after the Red Keep was built, or is it possible that this area of tree's was already in existence and enclosed, and became a godswood at that time. Or does the age tie to the Aegonfort? Some where in the information we get from Bran in Bloodraven's cave, we learn that Weirwoods can live forever and oaks can live 300 years.

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." ADWD-Bran III

300 tied to the oaks, 3000 tied to the redwoods, and forever tied to the weirwoods. It might not mean anything but this 300 years has always stood out to me, since the heart tree in the Red Keep is an oak, the Red Keep is a Targaryen castle, and the Targaryen dynasty is close to 300 years old. Is there something that ties a family to the age of their heart tree? I know that seems so bizarre, but what if the tree was on Aegon's Hill before he landed and built the Aegon Fort. Is the fall of their dynasty tied to the tree? But the tree is still standing, so does that mean they planted it after they began their conquest, but the tree is almost reached it's full lifespan? It just seems so specific to point out the two types of tree's that seem to be tied to heart tree's in our story. Mostly weirwoods and the oak in the Red Keep. And what about the redwoods? Where does that come into play in our story, or does the 3000 years tie to some milestone?

A quick death, eh? Like the one Joff served Ned?

I had noticed that Roose and Ramsay leaves the lying to Theon, so they don't have to do it themselves. I'd think it's safe to say it'd because of not wanting to offend the gods. Another scene I have to let simmer some more before I say unintelligent things, I fear.

Well, I have always felt like Ned's death could have been so very much worse, and have always even been thankfull (after I got done screaming and crying) that his death was so quick and hopefully painless. And while Ned didn't lie in front of a heart tree, he did lie on the steps of the Great Sept, and one might wonder if the old gods were watching. Perhaps death was his punishment, even if it was quick. Perhaps it wasn't Littlefinger whispering in Joffrey's ears, perhaps it was the old gods?

Is it that a man cannot lie in front of one, or that the gods will know and punish those who do?

Maybe so. But it seems like Theon's punishment started long before he lied in front of the heart tree. Maybe because Theon forsook the old gods when he was baptised in the water of the Drowned God when he returned to Pyke? But did Theon ever claim the old gods for his own? Maybe Theon really was a kinslayer and his punishment is based on that?

Well, that's a better alternative than what happened to Valarr's helm while it was resting on his father Baelor's head! So ~~watch out for~~, erm, try not to hit your head too hard!

And if you can find your way to my very nice and very large rabbit hole (without breaking your neck or loosing half your skull), your welcome any time! O_o

Oh, gods! Did I just open another of ~~Pandora's~~ stdaga 's boxes?!?

Perhaps you just found the origin of Stone Men! They come from Stone Babies!

How that could translate into dragons, I have no idea! I just pictured Catelyn with five stone babies in her belly after refusing to give birth in front of the heart tree... :tictoc

She already has a stone heart...

Haha! It's all your fault. I do think that people can carry these stone babies unknown and still carry viable pregnancies afterwards. Here comes the cracked pottery portion of this post... Maybe Cat has one in her, via the Neddard? A little icey fish wolf stone baby that just needs to be set free? Perhaps by fire? Would this creature be a chimera? A sphinx? I would put a torch to Stoneheart to see what happens. There are weird implications in the text for Ned and Cat to have another child. Maybe this is a way for it to happen! And we thought Rickon was going to be trouble...
:heresy

The only exception I can think of is in the form of ashes.

I suppose if it burns that hot, ashes might lose their connection. But those ashes still blow in the wind and can spread to many places. Perhaps there is no end to the weirwoods reach? Ash might be the best way to destroy it, but can you ever rip up all the roots. I don't seem to be able kill the Chinese elm's in my yard!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 30, 2018 8:18:22 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Sept 30, 2018 8:18:22 GMT

Interesting stuff! Nice little rabbit hole you fell into!

It was! Way more interesting than I initially thought, truth be told, as I didn't know much about them to begin with.

I do wonder about this godswood at the Red Keep. The Red Keep is built on Aegon's High Hill but not completed until Maegor's reign, and before the Red Keep was built, the Aegonfort was built, and I think it was built very early in Aegon's conquest. Perhaps before he had done much more than capture the hill itself. So, when did the godswood come into play? Was it planted after the Red Keep was built, or is it possible that this area of tree's was already in existence and enclosed, and became a godswood at that time. Or does the age tie to the Aegonfort? Some where in the information we get from Bran in Bloodraven's cave, we learn that Weirwoods can live forever and oaks can live 300 years.

Well, it's hard to say if they preserved some for a godswood from the start, but I'm inclined to think they did not. This is what we find in the section on the Conquest in the WB:

Aegon Targaryen quickly threw up a log- and-earth palisade around the highest of the three hills and dispatched his sisters to secure the submission of the nearest castles. Rosby yielded to Rhaenys and golden-eyed Meraxes without a fight. At Stokeworth a few crossbowmen loosed bolts at Visenya, until Vhagar's flames set the roofs of the castle keep ablaze. Then they too submitted.

It was Aegon who saw a great royal city to rival and surpass Lannisport and Oldtown spring up around his crude Aegonfort. And while King's Landing might have been a crowded, muddy, and stinking place at its outset, it was always full of activity. A makeshift sept constructed out of the hulk of a cog on the Blackwater served the common people, and soon a much grander sept was raised on Visenya's Hill with money sent by the High Septon. (This would be later joined by the Sept of Remembrance on the Hill of Rhaenys as a memorial to the queen.) Where once only fishing boats were seen, now cogs and galleys from Oldtown, Lannisport, the Free Cities, and even the Summer Isles began to appear as the flow of trade shifted from Duskendale and Maidenpool to King's Landing. The Aegonfort itself grew larger, bursting past its initial palisade to encompass more of Aegon's High Hill, and a new wooden keep was raised, its walls fifty feet high. It stood until 35 AC, when Aegon tore it down so that the Red Keep could be raised as a castle fit for the Targaryens and their heirs.

So at the start it was quite rudimentary, then bursting out of its initial pallisade. I find it hard to see any wood preserved here. The same with the city, no wood areas mentioned. I'd think the whole top was cleared and prepared for building a stone castle.

According to the history of Archmaester Gyldayn, it was suggested at court that Aegon left Queen Visenya in charge of building the Red Keep so that he would not have to endure her presence on Dragonstone. In their later years, their relationship—never a warm one to begin with—had grown even more distant.

As we knew, Visenya was set to start the building of the Red Keep. The Aegonfort is also not said to have its own sept. The inclusion of both sounds fitting with Aegon's consolidating agenda, I think.

But it is interesting that it's Visenya that starts the project! Until the Conquest, the Targaryens had continued living like Valyrians in both customs and religion. Of her we have this:

Even those who loved her best found Visenya stern, serious, unforgiving, and some said that she played with poisons and dabbled in dark sorceries.

Methinks this is not Westerosi dark sorceries, but the last remnants of the Valyrian ones, and who knows what that includes of knowledge! She was also practically raising Maegor herself, so he might have been quite steeped in that, or parts of it, as well. And he took over the project after her. He saw the completion of the Red Keep in 45 AC, but died himself about three years later. And he might not have been very concerned with including a godswood, maybe not even a Sept. Those things sound more in line with Jaehaerys, who was after all the Concilliator. And he was influenced by Septon Barth! I really do suspect the non-inclusion of a weirwood heart tree was very deliberate!

(Which makes me wonder about Summerhall as well. As Dragonstone seemingly doesn't have a godswood at all, and the Red Keep didn't have one with a weirwood, I'd bet neither did that castle-palace. But you never know... :-/

)

300 tied to the oaks, 3000 tied to the redwoods, and forever tied to the weirwoods. It might not mean anything but this 300 years has always stood out to me, since the heart tree in the Red Keep is an oak, the Red Keep is a Targaryen castle, and the Targaryen dynasty is close to 300 years old. Is there something that ties a family to the age of their heart tree? I know that seems so bizarre, but what if the tree was on Aegon's Hill before he landed and built the Aegon Fort. Is the fall of their dynasty tied to the tree? But the tree is still standing, so does that mean they planted it after they began their conquest, but the tree is almost reached it's full lifespan? It just seems so specific to point out the two types of tree's that seem to be tied to heart tree's in our story. Mostly weirwoods and the oak in the Red Keep. And what about the redwoods? Where does that come into play in our story, or does the 3000 years tie to some milestone?

It's possible, but I have no opinion one way or another right now. It's not a young oak, but we have no real idea of how old it might be. But it could be planted in Jaehaerys's reign.

Well, I have always felt like Ned's death could have been so very much worse, and have always even been thankfull (after I got done screaming and crying) that his death was so quick and hopefully painless. And while Ned didn't lie in front of a heart tree, he did lie on the steps of the Great Sept, and one might wonder if the old gods were watching. Perhaps death was his punishment, even if it was quick. Perhaps it wasn't Littlefinger whispering in Joffrey's ears, perhaps it was the old gods?

Oh, that's to be sure! It could've been much much worse!

I'm not sure the old gods would give a damn for him lying at a Sept, but the High Septon does have a weirwood staff... So if that counts, maybe. Though I'm more inclined to think Joff's mind was made up long before he made his way to the Sept of Baelor. Perhaps even as he sat on the Iron Throne hearing Sansa pleading for her father's life.

Maybe so. But it seems like Theon's punishment started long before he lied in front of the heart tree. Maybe because Theon forsook the old gods when he was baptised in the water of the Drowned God when he returned to Pyke? But did Theon ever claim the old gods for his own? Maybe Theon really was a kinslayer and his punishment is based on that?

Ha, I don't want to know what Theon might have been up to in front of that tree when he was a ward! Or another weirwood, come to think about it. :leaving

What he was punished for is hard to say, but I agree that it seems to have been started way before this lie.

We don't know that he took on the old gods, IIRC his thoughts tells us he didn't but I haven't bothered to check at this time. We have little to no evidence they are present at Pyke, and as there are no evidence he took any other gods while in the green lands, I doubt his baptism had anything to do with it.

Haha! It's all your fault. I do think that people can carry these stone babies unknown and still carry viable pregnancies afterwards. Here comes the cracked pottery portion of this post... Maybe Cat has one in her, via the Neddard? A little icey fish wolf stone baby that just needs to be set free? Perhaps by fire? Would this creature be a chimera? A sphinx? I would put a torch to Stoneheart to see what happens. There are weird implications in the text for Ned and Cat to have another child. Maybe this is a way for it to happen! And we thought Rickon was going to be trouble...
:heresy

I'd join in the burning if that thing any time! Not because I think she'd have a stone-fish-wolf in her belly, but I think it would be worth checking just to see her burn!

I suppose if it burns that hot, ashes might lose their connection. But those ashes still blow in the wind and can spread to many places. Perhaps there is no end to the weirwoods reach? Ash might be the best way to destroy it, but can you ever rip up all the roots. I don't seem to be able kill the Chinese elm's in my yard!

My father struggles with dandelions. He bought a root-zapper this summer, which supposedly would burn the roots. It didn't work at the promised zapping time, so he gave it another try the other day burning them longer. So far so good, but we might have to wait and see until spring!

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Sept 30, 2018 14:38:21 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Sept 30, 2018 14:38:21 GMT

So at the start it was quite rudimentary, then bursting out of its initial pallisade. I find it hard to see any wood preserved here. The same with the city, no wood areas mentioned. I'd think the whole top was cleared and prepared for building a stone castle.

Probably so. And even before that, any wood on the hill might have been used to actually build the Aegonfort and it's palisades. So, the godswood probably came during or after the building of the Red Keep, so between the buildings construction start in 35 and it's completion in 45. IF my tinfoil about their dynasty lasting as long as their heart tree, they might have some years left! Of course, my thoughts on that could all be crappola!

Methinks this is not Westerosi dark sorceries, but the last remnants of the Valyrian ones, and who knows what that includes of knowledge! She was also practically raising Maegor herself, so he might have been quite steeped in that, or parts of it, as well.

Ah, Visenya is very interesting to me. There are hints of her sorcery even being responsible for the conception of Maegor. I would imagine they both are open to the sorceries of Old Valyria or at least Essos. Both Maegor and Visenya tolerated Tyanna of the Tower and her rumored dark magic.

(Which makes me wonder about Summerhall as well. As Dragonstone seemingly doesn't have a godswood at all, and the Red Keep didn't have one with a weirwood, I'd bet neither did that castle-palace. But you never know... :-/

)

I hadn't given Summerhall a thought. Did the Targaryen's build it? Yes, after a quick look, it was built by Daeron II. Would be very interesting to know if it has a godswood. It seems like Jenny of Oldstones (descended from the First Men) and her woods witch companion (who might even be the Ghost of High Heart) would be drawn to a godswood or weirwood, and that was her home for a time, I think.

Ha, I don't want to know what Theon might have been up to in front of that tree when he was a ward! Or another weirwood, come to think about it. :leaving

I think he lost is virginity in that godswood, if I remember correct. Is there something special in that? Probably not. And I doubt it was in front of the heart tree. I'm to lazy to look it up right now.

We don't know that he took on the old gods, IIRC his thoughts tells us he didn't but I haven't bothered to check at this time. We have little to no evidence they are present at Pyke, and as there are no evidence he took any other gods while in the green lands, I doubt his baptism had anything to do with it.

Probably not.

I'd join in the burning if that thing any time! Not because I think she'd have a stone-fish-wolf in her belly, but I think it would be worth checking just to see her burn!

Hahaha!

My father struggles with dandelions. He bought a root-zapper this summer, which supposedly would burn the roots. It didn't work at the promised zapping time, so he gave it another try the other day burning them longer. So far so good, but we might have to wait and see until spring!

Dandelion's are hard to kill. Very deep roots and the seed is so easily spread!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Oct 2, 2018 11:55:17 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Oct 2, 2018 11:55:17 GMT

Probably so. And even before that, any wood on the hill might have been used to actually build the Aegonfort and it's palisades. So, the godswood probably came during or after the building of the Red Keep, so between the buildings construction start in 35 and it's completion in 45. IF my tinfoil about their dynasty lasting as long as their heart tree, they might have some years left! Of course, my thoughts on that could all be crappola!

Well, Dany is dreaming of re-establishing the dynasty knowing/believing (take your pick) that she's barren. :tlh

Ah, Visenya is very interesting to me. There are hints of her sorcery even being responsible for the conception of Maegor. I would imagine they both are open to the sorceries of Old Valyria or at least Essos. Both Maegor and Visenya tolerated Tyanna of the Tower and her rumored dark magic.

Of those three-heads-of-the-dragon, she is the most interesting to me.

It might have been planted by Maegor, but Alysanne and Jaehaerys is also a good guess. If the latter, was it before of after their trip north? And they seem to have had a particular interest in what lay behind all of this, with Septon Barth's books and all.

I hadn't given Summerhall a thought. Did the Targaryen's build it? Yes, after a quick look, it was built by Daeron II. Would be very interesting to know if it has a godswood. It seems like Jenny of Oldstones (descended from the First Men) and her woods witch companion (who might even be the Ghost of High Heart) would be drawn to a godswood or weirwood, and that was her home for a time, I think.

Yes, and we hear that several princes were styled as Prince of Summerhall. We know Maekar held it, and Daeron liked it there. But other than that, we don't know who held it after Maekar ascended the throne (I think he held his title until then). Duncan might have held it, but I can find no information of that in any of the books.

I think he lost is virginity in that godswood, if I remember correct. Is there something special in that? Probably not. And I doubt it was in front of the heart tree. I'm to lazy to look it up right now.

Losing his virginity? No, and I doubt the heart tree would mind some love happening in front of it. I was thinking all the lies he'd tell to get into the girl's skirt (or just acting like the ass he was, to be honest *shuddering*).

Dandelion's are hard to kill. Very deep roots and the seed is so easily spread!

LOL! The seed is strong indeed!

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Mance Rayder is the son of Bloodraven. Oct 2, 2018 15:19:56 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Oct 2, 2018 15:19:56 GMT

Well, Dany is dreaming of re-establishing the dynasty knowing/believing (take your pick) that she's barren. :tlh

Good point! Although I wonder if she really is looking at the future beyond herself, and who will rule after her.

Of those three-heads-of-the-dragon, she is the most interesting to me.

She is very interesting to me. I can't help but see a little Arya in Visenya and Sansa in Rhaenys. One a warrior and less social, and one more concerned with court life and art and music. Still, Rhaenys mounted a dragon and battled, too. Honestly, if Jon were to end up married to both his sister's, it would not surprise me. Especially if he turns out to have Targaryen blood and they are actually his cousins. One for love and one for duty, just like Aegon! It just seems like this story keeps repeating itself.

It might have been planted by Maegor, but Alysanne and Jaehaerys is also a good guess. If the latter, was it before of after their trip north? And they seem to have had a particular interest in what lay behind all of this, with Septon Barth's books and all.

Aenys is also an option. He ruled for 5 years between Aegon and Maegor, and he seems quite artsy-fartsy type, so I could see him planting a godswood as part of his contribution to the Red Keep's construction. That is a guess on my part of course, at it could have been many of the Targaryen rulers who ordered the planting of the godswood.

Yes, and we hear that several princes were styled as Prince of Summerhall. We know Maekar held it, and Daeron liked it there. But other than that, we don't know who held it after Maekar ascended the throne (I think he held his title until then). Duncan might have held it, but I can find no information of that in any of the books.

I think Duncan did hold the title and his brother after him.

Aegon's eldest son Duncan, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the throne, was the first to defy him. Though betrothed to a daughter of House Baratheon of Storm's End, Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, and mysterious girl who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed descent from the long- vanished kings of the First Men, the smallfolk of surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting that she was only some half-mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch.

It was true that Aegon had been a friend to the smallfolk, had practically grown up among them, but to countenance the marriage of the heir to the throne to a commoner of uncertain birth was beyond him. His Grace did all he could to have the marriage undone, demanding that Duncan put Jenny aside. The prince shared his father's stubbornness, however, and refused him. Even when the High Septon, Grand Maester, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favor of his brother Jaehaerys, and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone.

Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm's End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm's End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel's heir. To seal the bargain, Princess Rhaelle was sent to Storm's End to serve as Lord Lyonel's cupbearer and companion to his lady wife. Jenny of Oldstones—Lady Jenny, as she was called by courtesy—was eventually accepted at court, and throughout the Seven Kingdoms the smallfolk held her especially dear. She and her prince, forever after known as the Prince of Dragonflies, were a favorite subject of singers for many years.

Next was Prince Jaehaerys, now Prince of Dragonstone. Though King Aegon had acquired a distaste for the Valyrian custom of incestuous marriage during his years amongst the smallfolk, Prince Jaehaerys was of a more traditional bent, for from a very early age he had loved his sister Shaera and dreamed of wedding her in the old Targaryen fashion. Once aware of his desires, King Aegon and Queen Betha had done their best to separate the two, yet somehow distance only seemed to inflame the mutual passion of this prince and princess. TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V

So, Duncan was Prince of Dragonstone, and Jaehaerys after him. Rhaegar is often referred to as Prince of Dragonstone, and while I can't find text proof that says this title belong to Aerys, he did become king after Jaehaerys II, his father died, so it makes sense that he carried this title as well while his father reigned.

Losing his virginity? No, and I doubt the heart tree would mind some love happening in front of it. I was thinking all the lies he'd tell to get into the girl's skirt (or just acting like the ass he was, to be honest *shuddering*).

Theon was handsome, young, and heir to the Iron Islands. I doubt he had to lie much to get a girl into his bed. Or to lay down in the grass with him.