Firestorm is new to me as well, but is it possible Storm born refers to the storm that happen while Ned was going to White Harbor at the start of rebellion, or the storm of rose petals from ToJ dream of Ned? Since we know a storm didn't happen when Stannis was preparing to take Dragonstone.
I think storm could have several meanings, and I do think the "storm" that is attributed to Ned Stark and the Fisherman's Daughter could be one of them. I am not sure if that is easily tied to Dany's "firestorm". Honestly, I was surprised I had never paid attention to "firestorm" before, as it's pretty strong wording, but I had not. I am leaning towards it tying to dragons and their riders, such as the dragons attacking Harrenhal or the Field of Fire, but I suppose it could also apply to lightening and fire started in that way. Which brings to mind the Stormlords, such as Baratheon and Dondarrion, who are certainly tied to lightening. I guess lightening could probably tie to a storm at sea, such as the storm in the the Bite, or the storm that took Steffan Baratheon's life.
The storm of rose petals could perhaps tie to any of those and it's certainly strong imagery in the story, but it feels a little different to me. Not gentle, but subtle and drifting, if that makes any sense at all.
Hmm, I never thought it is possible Daenerys' moniker has a connection to storm that killed Steffon, because Daenerys was the possible bride they were searching for in Essos? If she was born early she will really marry Rhaegar? Plus it is possible Rhae/Rhaggat/Rhaegar to be connected?
Hmm, I never thought it is possible Daenerys' moniker has a connection to storm that killed Steffon, because Daenerys was the possible bride they were searching for in Essos? If she was born early she will really marry Rhaegar? Plus it is possible Rhae/Rhaggat/Rhaegar to be connected?
I am not sure how that all works out time line wise since Dany would not have been born for several years yet, but if some of these storms are happening as a way to stop something from occurring in regards to Daenerys, then I need to focus a bit more on the details around Steffen's visit to Essos. I think you are more familiar with those Essosi details that I am. Steffan had already said that he couldn't find a suitable bride for Rhaegar in Essos, whether that was true or not, we don't really know, but all he brought back was Patchface. But if Dany is linked to storm's, then I speculate that one or both of her parents are as well, and that could link to this storm that killed Steffan and his wife. But I admit it's unclear to me how it could be connected.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Hmm, I never thought it is possible Daenerys' moniker has a connection to storm that killed Steffon, because Daenerys was the possible bride they were searching for in Essos? If she was born early she will really marry Rhaegar? Plus it is possible Rhae/Rhaggat/Rhaegar to be connected?
I am not sure how that all works out time line wise since Dany would not have been born for several years yet, but if some of these storms are happening as a way to stop something from occurring in regards to Daenerys, then I need to focus a bit more on the details around Steffen's visit to Essos. I think you are more familiar with those Essosi details that I am. Steffan had already said that he couldn't find a suitable bride for Rhaegar in Essos, whether that was true or not, we don't really know, but all he brought back was Patchface. But if Dany is linked to storm's, then I speculate that one or both of her parents are as well, and that could link to this storm that killed Steffan and his wife. But I admit it's unclear to me how it could be connected.
Hmm, if Steffon was searching for a Valyrian bride his options are limited to descendants of Aegon V's sisters and brother's if Duncan Dragonfly didn't have a child and Steffon only had sons. But only one in Essos are bastards of Aerion which is actually more relevant in story than Blackfyre.
Hmm, if Steffon was searching for a Valyrian bride his options are limited to descendants of Aegon V's sisters and brother's if Duncan Dragonfly didn't have a child and Steffon only had sons. But only one in Essos are bastards of Aerion which is actually more relevant in story than Blackfyre.
I think that could apply if he was looking for Targaryen descent/blood in a bride, but what we are told is a bride of noble birth from a Valyrian blood line. So that could mean many things, and might tie to a family far older than the Targaryen's. Volantis has it's dragon fused black walled center city called Old Volantis, said to be filled with people who still worship the gods of Valyria, the "Old Blood". I think that is where Steffon was searching for a suitable bride for Rhaegar. Why he "failed" is the unknown part. Was he not granted access to this inner city? Was there no one the right age? That's hard to believe, but perhaps so. Did no one from Volantis want to mix their blood with the now quite mixed blood of the Targaryen's? Maybe so.
The Targaryen's have shown they are willing to mix their family with other families when needed, and perhaps they felt like now was the time for Valyrian blood that wasn't Targaryen. At the time of the conquest and even before it, I am pretty convinced that they knew enough that they would innermarry with the Velaryon's of Valyrian descent, but never seemed to want to marry with people from House Celtigar that we know of, yet Celtigar is said to have Valyrian blood as well. I think they (Aerys and Steffon) were looking for specific genetic attributes of Valyrian blood, but not specifically Targaryen blood.
Nymeria Sand is said to be the daughter of a woman of Volantine "Old Blood" and Oberyn Martell and was born in Volantis. So, it seems that Oberyn was granted access to the inner walled Old Volantis, and I think you have speculated that Oberyn in some way may have blocked Steffon's search for a bride. Perhaps he stole the only eligible bride that Rhaegar would have wanted?
Last Edit: Sept 10, 2020 15:15:06 GMT by stdaga: spelling, yikes!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Hmm, if Steffon was searching for a Valyrian bride his options are limited to descendants of Aegon V's sisters and brother's if Duncan Dragonfly didn't have a child and Steffon only had sons. But only one in Essos are bastards of Aerion which is actually more relevant in story than Blackfyre.
I think that could apply if he was looking for Targaryen descent/blood in a bride, but what we are told is a bride of noble birth from a Valyrian blood line. So that could mean many things, and might tie to a family far older than the Targaryen's. Volantis has it's dragon fused black walled center city called Old Volantis, said to be filled with people who still worship the gods of Valyria, the "Old Blood". I think that is where Steffon was searching for a suitable bride for Rhaegar. Why he "failed" is the unknown part. Was he not granted access to this inner city? Was there no one the right age? That's hard to believe, but perhaps so. Did no one from Volantis want to mix their blood with the now quite mixed blood of the Targaryen's? Maybe so.
The Targaryen's have shown they are willing to mix their family with other families when needed, and perhaps they felt like now was the time for Valyrian blood that wasn't Targaryen. At the time of the conquest and even before it, I am pretty convinced that they knew enough that they would innermarry with the Velaryon's of Valyrian descent, but never seemed to want to marry with people from House Celtigar that we know of, yet Celtigar is said to have Valyrian blood as well. I think they (Aerys and Steffon) were looking for specific genetic attributes of Valyrian blood, but not specifically Targaryen blood.
Nymeria Sand is said to be the daughter of a woman of Volantine "Old Blood" and Oberyn Martell and was born in Volantis. So, it seems that Oberyn was granted access to the inner walled Old Volantis, and I think you have speculated that Oberyn in some way may have blocked Steffon's search for a bride. Perhaps he stole the only eligible bride that Rhaegar would have wanted?
Yes, I do think birth of Nymeria is not a random event but I also think if it is possible Nymeria is a descendant of Sara's Volantene son? If not then what happened to family of this son, I suspect the Lysene son founded Saan family after all.
Yes, I do think birth of Nymeria is not a random event but I also think if it is possible Nymeria is a descendant of Sara's Volantene son? If not then what happened to family of this son, I suspect the Lysene son founded Saan family after all.
Hopefully we get some answers some day! And hopefully sooner rather than later!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Yes, I do think birth of Nymeria is not a random event but I also think if it is possible Nymeria is a descendant of Sara's Volantene son? If not then what happened to family of this son, I suspect the Lysene son founded Saan family after all.
Hopefully we get some answers some day! And hopefully sooner rather than later!
I would say sooner, we have NotABlog's of GRRM that confirms he wrote six chapters and still writes into evenings, he also posted about what makes a good TV show, his twitter header changed from F&B to something cryptic af, he also told endings of Bran and Tyrion to two people if Reddit is to be believed.
I would say sooner, we have NotABlog's of GRRM that confirms he wrote six chapters and still writes into evenings, he also posted about what makes a good TV show, his twitter header changed from F&B to something cryptic af, he also told endings of Bran and Tyrion to two people if Reddit is to be believed.
I know what his blog says, but I have been down this road for over a dozen years now. I have heard him be hopeful before and then we have still waited and waited. And I do think he will eventually get us Winds, but that might open more questions than it does give us answers, and there is still the potential that we will not get a conclusion to the series with the final book (if he can even wrap it up in two more books). And I don't know anything about telling endings to people based on Reddit posts, except he was also supposed to have told the broad ending to Dan and Dave as well, as I think they turned that information into a mess. If we don't get the conclusion from GRRM himself, we will always wonder what differences there might be.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I would say sooner, we have NotABlog's of GRRM that confirms he wrote six chapters and still writes into evenings, he also posted about what makes a good TV show, his twitter header changed from F&B to something cryptic af, he also told endings of Bran and Tyrion to two people if Reddit is to be believed.
I know what his blog says, but I have been down this road for over a dozen years now. I have heard him be hopeful before and then we have still waited and waited. And I do think he will eventually get us Winds, but that might open more questions than it does give us answers, and there is still the potential that we will not get a conclusion to the series with the final book (if he can even wrap it up in two more books). And I don't know anything about telling endings to people based on Reddit posts, except he was also supposed to have told the broad ending to Dan and Dave as well, as I think they turned that information into a mess. If we don't get the conclusion from GRRM himself, we will always wonder what differences there might be.
Well I do think Winds should be easy, hell planning AFFC and ADWD should be easy too as we know some sample chapters of TWOW and the battles they prepare for were supposed to be in ADWD. I do believe we will need a Time for Wolves in the future if TWOW doesn't take care of some loose ends. He told ending of Bran to Daniel Abraham and ending of Tyrion to a woman whose name I don't remember now, also planned an end scene for Daenerys but they don't mean anything since we don't have TWOW to have some idea how ADOS and their ending could be.
Well I do think Winds should be easy, hell planning AFFC and ADWD should be easy too as we know some sample chapters of TWOW and the battles they prepare for were supposed to be in ADWD. I do believe we will need a Time for Wolves in the future if TWOW doesn't take care of some loose ends. He told ending of Bran to Daniel Abraham and ending of Tyrion to a woman whose name I don't remember now, also planned an end scene for Daenerys but they don't mean anything since we don't have TWOW to have some idea how ADOS and their ending could be.
My hesitation comes from one missed deadline after another. And the fact that he had already promised it would be ready by World Con, and then it obviously was not, and it's still not even after being locked in his CovidCabin for months and months, and now we are several months past another blown deadline. I remember the wait for Dance being like this as well. In the end, they published that without all of the chapters he wanted in it, another sign he still can't wrap it up. I don't mean to sound negative or be judgmental, because I am sure this is a difficult process for him. He seems never to have been good at deadlines, but if he can't even try to give us one book, I don't see how we can get Dream of Spring, or even another book, if that is needed. And it doesn't matter to me if other people know the ending he wants to give us, because it's his creation, so if the conclusion doesn't come from him, it's not the same. As has been accurately demonstrated by the Game of Thrones show.
ETA: As a disclaimer, I think mentally, I feel that if I have no expectation of the next book or a conclusion, then when it doesn't come, I can't be disappointed, where as if I expect it, when it doesn't come, then I am very disappointed. I think lack of positive expectation is to save myself from ultimate disappointment. If we get a book, GREAT!, but if we don't, then it's just as I suspected, Blah!
Last Edit: Sept 18, 2020 15:29:47 GMT by stdaga: ETA
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Well I do think Winds should be easy, hell planning AFFC and ADWD should be easy too as we know some sample chapters of TWOW and the battles they prepare for were supposed to be in ADWD. I do believe we will need a Time for Wolves in the future if TWOW doesn't take care of some loose ends. He told ending of Bran to Daniel Abraham and ending of Tyrion to a woman whose name I don't remember now, also planned an end scene for Daenerys but they don't mean anything since we don't have TWOW to have some idea how ADOS and their ending could be.
My hesitation comes from one missed deadline after another. And the fact that he had already promised it would be ready by World Con, and then it obviously was not, and it's still not even after being locked in his CovidCabin for months and months, and now we are several months past another blown deadline. I remember the wait for Dance being like this as well. In the end, they published that without all of the chapters he wanted in it, another sign he still can't wrap it up. I don't mean to sound negative or be judgmental, because I am sure this is a difficult process for him. He seems never to have been good at deadlines, but if he can't even try to give us one book, I don't see how we can get Dream of Spring, or even another book, if that is needed. And it doesn't matter to me if other people know the ending he wants to give us, because it's his creation, so if the conclusion doesn't come from him, it's not the same. As has been accurately demonstrated by the Game of Thrones show.
ETA: As a disclaimer, I think mentally, I feel that if I have no expectation of the next book or a conclusion, then when it doesn't come, I can't be disappointed, where as if I expect it, when it doesn't come, then I am very disappointed. I think lack of positive expectation is to save myself from ultimate disappointment. If we get a book, GREAT!, but if we don't, then it's just as I suspected, Blah!
Honestly you are right be pessimistic, the only things I am sure about TWOW there would be tons of Arya and Bran chapters, that's it. Do you think GRRM would be more productive if ASOIAF were written as short novellas that focused on different eras or characters? He wrote one with Daenerys AGOT chapters before ASOIAF, his world building and prequels focus on Targaryens, he says Arya chapters could be novellas.
Honestly you are right be pessimistic, the only things I am sure about TWOW there would be tons of Arya and Bran chapters, that's it. Do you think GRRM would be more productive if ASOIAF were written as short novellas that focused on different eras or characters? He wrote one with Daenerys AGOT chapters before ASOIAF, his world building and prequels focus on Targaryens, he says Arya chapters could be novellas.
I thought that he just released the Daenerys chapters after Game of Thrones was published, all in the same year, but in checking the dates, the novella chapters did come out in a magazine a month before the first novel was published. It was considered a novella called Blood of the Dragon, but the chapter's were just extracts from the entire novel. It came out in a magazine before Game was published, but the entire novel must have been finished first, since it was already to the publisher. The novella seems to be almost an advertisement for the actual novel!
But I do think he might enjoy publishing his stories like that, based on character novella's, but I think he is still going to have cohesion problems putting it all together, which is why writing it must be a huge project! I think at heart, is a short story/novella writer in his core, another reason this huge undertaking of books has been a challenge for him.
ETA: while thinking about this a bit, I do think that Blood of the Dragon has the discrepancy between Braavos and Tyrosh, which does make one wonder how many other things could have been changed between the two publishing's. I think there was another difference too, such as Aegon the Conqueror only is married to one sister and not both, in the novella. I have never read the novella, so I don't know what else might be different. Perhaps GRRM has always struggled to stop editing his stories. It does seem like he might be a compulsive editor! But the differences do make me wonder just what his timeline was, between publishing the novel and the novella. Maybe there was more of a gap than the month separation in publishing shows.
Last Edit: Sept 19, 2020 15:35:01 GMT by stdaga: ETA
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Honestly you are right be pessimistic, the only things I am sure about TWOW there would be tons of Arya and Bran chapters, that's it. Do you think GRRM would be more productive if ASOIAF were written as short novellas that focused on different eras or characters? He wrote one with Daenerys AGOT chapters before ASOIAF, his world building and prequels focus on Targaryens, he says Arya chapters could be novellas.
I thought that he just released the Daenerys chapters after Game of Thrones was published, all in the same year, but in checking the dates, the novella chapters did come out in a magazine a month before the first novel was published. It was considered a novella called Blood of the Dragon, but the chapter's were just extracts from the entire novel. It came out in a magazine before Game was published, but the entire novel must have been finished first, since it was already to the publisher. The novella seems to be almost an advertisement for the actual novel!
But I do think he might enjoy publishing his stories like that, based on character novella's, but I think he is still going to have cohesion problems putting it all together, which is why writing it must be a huge project! I think at heart, is a short story/novella writer in his core, another reason this huge undertaking of books has been a challenge for him.
ETA: while thinking about this a bit, I do think that Blood of the Dragon has the discrepancy between Braavos and Tyrosh, which does make one wonder how many other things could have been changed between the two publishing's. I think there was another difference too, such as Aegon the Conqueror only is married to one sister and not both, in the novella. I have never read the novella, so I don't know what else might be different. Perhaps GRRM has always struggled to stop editing his stories. It does seem like he might be a compulsive editor! But the differences do make me wonder just what his timeline was, between publishing the novel and the novella. Maybe there was more of a gap than the month separation in publishing shows.
I agree he is used to writing short novellas and struggles plus like you said he changes things between original draft and final form and sometimes they are not subtle. But I did found a reddit post about differences between Blood of the Dragon (Daenerys Novella) and Daenerys AGOT chapters - they are
House with the Red Door is in Tyrosh - which makes Lemongate theory more juicy and is a subtle red herring for Dorne as Tyroshi people have Rhoynish Andal and FM ancestry as well and same claimants.
Aegon only marries Rhaenys - makes sense again, Targaryens marrying brother to sister yes but they have no rule that you should marry your eldest sister, Aegon can marry Rhaenys for love and duty
When Daenerys marries Drogo, her collar has Dothraki glyphs and her bracelets have rubies in BotD, in AGOT they are amethyst and Valyrian glyphs
Qartheen tale of Dragon's hatching is missing in novella and the dragon in Daenerys dream has golden eyes
There is no poison plot in novella
Comet present when Daenerys is having sex with camatose Drogo
Now, she thought, now, and for an instant, just an instant, she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his stallion of smoke, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled at her, and the great whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing. - this quote is slightly different
Daenerys sees other things on funeral pyre and they are Burning Lions, Great Yellow Serpents, Unicorns made of air and flame, a great grey stallion made of smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame - the AGOT version adds Fish, Foxes, Monsters, Wolves, Bright Birds, Flowering Trees to the list.
So over all novella version has its problems but focusing on less characters could be better for George. I think GRRM also released ACOK Daenerys chapters as novella too but I don't know the differences between them.
I agree he is used to writing short novellas and struggles plus like you said he changes things between original draft and final form and sometimes they are not subtle. But I did found a reddit post about differences between Blood of the Dragon (Daenerys Novella) and Daenerys AGOT chapters - they are
House with the Red Door is in Tyrosh - which makes Lemongate theory more juicy and is a subtle red herring for Dorne as Tyroshi people have Rhoynish Andal and FM ancestry as well and same claimants.
Aegon only marries Rhaenys - makes sense again, Targaryens marrying brother to sister yes but they have no rule that you should marry your eldest sister, Aegon can marry Rhaenys for love and duty
When Daenerys marries Drogo, her collar has Dothraki glyphs and her bracelets have rubies in BotD, in AGOT they are amethyst and Valyrian glyphs
Qartheen tale of Dragon's hatching is missing in novella and the dragon in Daenerys dream has golden eyes
There is no poison plot in novella
Comet present when Daenerys is having sex with camatose Drogo
Now, she thought, now, and for an instant, just an instant, she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his stallion of smoke, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled at her, and the great whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing. - this quote is slightly different
Daenerys sees other things on funeral pyre and they are Burning Lions, Great Yellow Serpents, Unicorns made of air and flame, a great grey stallion made of smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame - the AGOT version adds Fish, Foxes, Monsters, Wolves, Bright Birds, Flowering Trees to the list.
So over all novella version has its problems but focusing on less characters could be better for George. I think GRRM also released ACOK Daenerys chapters as novella too but I don't know the differences between them.
After my initial post, I found a reddit post that listed and discussed many of the differences, such as the ones you mention. I was surprised there were so many differences. Some are subtle and might not make much of a difference to the story, while some might have more of an effect. It's certainly interesting that there are so many differences.
I know he has talked about the first Stark scene, with Ned's execution of Gared and the finding of the direwolf pup's in the snow as very organic and purely inspired, but am wondering if some of Dany's story is like that as well. Almost like inspirations of ice and fire. Those scenes and stories came first, and all the rest was built around it in layers.
I did not know about the ACOK Dany chapters as a novella. I wonder if they are also different from the chapters published in Clash?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I agree he is used to writing short novellas and struggles plus like you said he changes things between original draft and final form and sometimes they are not subtle. But I did found a reddit post about differences between Blood of the Dragon (Daenerys Novella) and Daenerys AGOT chapters - they are
House with the Red Door is in Tyrosh - which makes Lemongate theory more juicy and is a subtle red herring for Dorne as Tyroshi people have Rhoynish Andal and FM ancestry as well and same claimants.
Aegon only marries Rhaenys - makes sense again, Targaryens marrying brother to sister yes but they have no rule that you should marry your eldest sister, Aegon can marry Rhaenys for love and duty
When Daenerys marries Drogo, her collar has Dothraki glyphs and her bracelets have rubies in BotD, in AGOT they are amethyst and Valyrian glyphs
Qartheen tale of Dragon's hatching is missing in novella and the dragon in Daenerys dream has golden eyes
There is no poison plot in novella
Comet present when Daenerys is having sex with camatose Drogo
Now, she thought, now, and for an instant, just an instant, she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his stallion of smoke, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled at her, and the great whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing. - this quote is slightly different
Daenerys sees other things on funeral pyre and they are Burning Lions, Great Yellow Serpents, Unicorns made of air and flame, a great grey stallion made of smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame - the AGOT version adds Fish, Foxes, Monsters, Wolves, Bright Birds, Flowering Trees to the list.
So over all novella version has its problems but focusing on less characters could be better for George. I think GRRM also released ACOK Daenerys chapters as novella too but I don't know the differences between them.
After my initial post, I found a reddit post that listed and discussed many of the differences, such as the ones you mention. I was surprised there were so many differences. Some are subtle and might not make much of a difference to the story, while some might have more of an effect. It's certainly interesting that there are so many differences.
I know he has talked about the first Stark scene, with Ned's execution of Gared and the finding of the direwolf pup's in the snow as very organic and purely inspired, but am wondering if some of Dany's story is like that as well. Almost like inspirations of ice and fire. Those scenes and stories came first, and all the rest was built around it in layers.
I did not know about the ACOK Dany chapters as a novella. I wonder if they are also different from the chapters published in Clash?
Sadly I do not know if there are comparison posts about Path of Dragon and ACOK chapter differences. I know his talk about Bran chapter as well, is it possible ice part is more neat and close to original outline but fire part has been tempered with opinions of others? I do believe dragons edition messed things up unintentionally, Targaryens being able to control fire or being descendants of Gemstone Rulers and connected to Rhllor and visions makes more sense IMO and the dragon/beast of our story would be winged snake whose waking is deliberately vague.