anyone remember BC's theory about Jon being born at Starfall? I can't remember now, but it was a compelling argument
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I must admit I don't. Are you sure it wasn't superunknown5's theory?
I don't know Black Crow's theory either.
Did you want to discuss the topic in general, or the specifics of BC's version?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Paging @serduncan! He remembers this. Where would this post belong re:organizationally? Parentage? I don't want to steal BC's idea but I remember it was convincing. Or if anyone else wants to point out the evidence in general, I can move this thread to a more appropriate place if you like. I forget to check parentage stuff a lot in that sub forum.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Paging Ser Duncan! He remembers this. Where would this post belong re:organizationally? Parentage? I don't want to steal BC's idea but I remember it was convincing. Or if anyone else wants to point out the evidence in general, I can move this thread to a more appropriate place if you like. I forget to check parentage stuff a lot in that sub forum.
The Heresy Essays is the parentage section now. Since the essays are done and they're up on W as well, the project here is pretty much over as it's own exclusive board. So this is the right place if Jon's being at Starfall is about who his parents are.
But if I recall BC's argument on this, it was more military than parentage. I'll paraphrase some of his argument, if I'm recalling correctly. The tower of joy is not a fortified tower, but more of a cairn like structure with no habitable building. So while the fight might have taken place there, they can't have been there living and having a child. Since Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn, that is where he found Jon, because only 2 left the tower, not 3 and a wet nurse. And the maid and the cook and the stable hands etc.
Also, I think SlyWren also has a good argument for Jon being at Starfall, I think.
Hence, Arthur and Lyanna, @superunknown5 where did he go, btw? I think he's more of the strong and silent type. SlyWren, what was your idea?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Yes! Promise me Ned! Go to Starfall and protect my son! Love it.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Well, first up, I buy most of Black Crow's reading on the tower scene. It makes the most sense if no one's in the tower. Otherwise, you have to add stuff into the text.
But on Starfall--right now my reasons for it:
1. Convenient and defensible and comfortable.
2. Sansa and Arya both echo Lyanna--and they both hide under disguises with the help of allies, NOT by holing up in one place.
3. After Sansa is framed for regicide, Baelish takes her to an unnamed tower (like the tower of joy).
Baelish has a joke name for it--the Drearfort.
They only stay there a short time to get the story straight and dye Sansa's hair.
Then they move to the Eyrie--the only castle in the novels other than Starfall that's described as having white stone towers (Whitewalls has them, but it's torn down before the novels start).
While at the Eyrie, Marillion (a singer) calls Sansa a rose while she's dressed in blue. Then, Baelish and Lysa have a fight over who he loves (as Ashara was supposed love Ned) and Lysa mentions her lost child (as Ashara was supposed to have lost a daughter). And then the distraught woman (Lysa) who lost a child dies from a fall from the tower. Ashara is supposed to have jumped. Lysa is pushed--and a singer gets the blame.
I have a hard time figuring out why Martin put all that into the books unless he's telling us something about where Lyanna (echoed by Sansa) was.
4. When Ygritte tells Jon the tale of the Blue Winter Rose, she tells him how the story really ends. The Stark in Winterfell kills the father of the Stark maid's child. Then, the Stark in Winterfell takes a trophy/artifact (Bael's head) back to the castle. And the Stark Maid throws herself from a tower after seeing the artifact (Bael's head).
This "real" ending makes much more sense if Lyanna's at Starfall and Arthur's the father--we know Ned fought and killed Arthur (somehow)--the Stark in Winterfell killing the father of the Stark maid's child. Then the Stark in Winterfell takes the sword Dawn (artifact) back to a castle with towers. Then, the role of dead woman gets split: Ashara throws herself from a tower, but the Stark maid actually dies in child birth.
Bottom line: nothing in the tower scene itself says anyone's in the tower. And Sansa's plot and the Bael Tale make a lot more sense in context if Lyanna's at Starfall.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Well, first up, I buy most of Black Crow's reading on the tower scene. It makes the most sense if no one's in the tower. Otherwise, you have to add stuff into the text.
But on Starfall--right now my reasons for it:
1. Convenient and defensible and comfortable.
2. Sansa and Arya both echo Lyanna--and they both hide under disguises with the help of allies, NOT by holing up in one place.
3. After Sansa is framed for regicide, Baelish takes her to an unnamed tower (like the tower of joy).
Baelish has a joke name for it--the Drearfort.
They only stay there a short time to get the story straight and dye Sansa's hair.
Then they move to the Eyrie--the only castle in the novels other than Starfall that's described as having white stone towers (Whitewalls has them, but it's torn down before the novels start).
While at the Eyrie, Marillion (a singer) calls Sansa a rose while she's dressed in blue. Then, Baelish and Lysa have a fight over who he loves (as Ashara was supposed love Ned) and Lysa mentions her lost child (as Ashara was supposed to have lost a daughter). And then the distraught woman (Lysa) who lost a child dies from a fall from the tower. Ashara is supposed to have jumped. Lysa is pushed--and a singer gets the blame.
I have a hard time figuring out why Martin put all that into the books unless he's telling us something about where Lyanna (echoed by Sansa) was.
4. When Ygritte tells Jon the tale of the Blue Winter Rose, she tells him how the story really ends. The Stark in Winterfell kills the father of the Stark maid's child. Then, the Stark in Winterfell takes a trophy/artifact (Bael's head) back to the castle. And the Stark Maid throws herself from a tower after seeing the artifact (Bael's head).
This "real" ending makes much more sense if Lyanna's at Starfall and Arthur's the father--we know Ned fought and killed Arthur (somehow)--the Stark in Winterfell killing the father of the Stark maid's child. Then the Stark in Winterfell takes the sword Dawn (artifact) back to a castle with towers. Then, the role of dead woman gets split: Ashara throws herself from a tower, but the Stark maid actually dies in child birth.
Bottom line: nothing in the tower scene itself says anyone's in the tower. And Sansa's plot and the Bael Tale make a lot more sense in context if Lyanna's at Starfall.
At least that's my current take. ::shuffle::
And let me just take this moment to agree with this take, because as you know, it's pretty much my take as well. I just wonder if there's even more to the story. :::
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The tower of joy is not a fortified tower, but more of a cairn like structure with no habitable building. So while the fight might have taken place there, they can't have been there living and having a child. Since Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn, that is where he found Jon, because only 2 left the tower, not 3 and a wet nurse. And the maid and the cook and the stable hands etc.
I think this part actually came from me, if I'm not mistaken. I've been the tower of joy = big pile of rocks guy for quite a while.
Yes! Promise me Ned! Go to Starfall and protect my son! Love it.
Nope, as Weasel Pie has illustrated, we've no reason to place Lyanna at the tower of blood-stained rocks long fallen. Instead, I think we should look at the Promise itself as taking place at Starfall...
Well, first up, I buy most of Black Crow's reading on the tower scene. It makes the most sense if no one's in the tower. Otherwise, you have to add stuff into the text.
Yup. Never a good thing. Though I think BC's ronin argument is a bit ignorant (as in ignoring a some of the canon). We have to account for the words of the kg. They certainly know their king has been killed, and they are certainly fighting for something.
2. Sansa and Arya both echo Lyanna--and they both hide under disguises with the help of allies, NOT by holing up in one place.
3. After Sansa is framed for regicide, Baelish takes her to an unnamed tower (like the tower of joy).
Baelish has a joke name for it--the Drearfort.
They only stay there a short time to get the story straight and dye Sansa's hair.
Then they move to the Eyrie--the only castle in the novels other than Starfall that's described as having white stone towers (Whitewalls has them, but it's torn down before the novels start).
While at the Eyrie, Marillion (a singer) calls Sansa a rose while she's dressed in blue. Then, Baelish and Lysa have a fight over who he loves (as Ashara was supposed love Ned) and Lysa mentions her lost child (as Ashara was supposed to have lost a daughter). And then the distraught woman (Lysa) who lost a child dies from a fall from the tower. Ashara is supposed to have jumped. Lysa is pushed--and a singer gets the blame.
I have a hard time figuring out why Martin put all that into the books unless he's telling us something about where Lyanna (echoed by Sansa) was.
4. When Ygritte tells Jon the tale of the Blue Winter Rose, she tells him how the story really ends. The Stark in Winterfell kills the father of the Stark maid's child. Then, the Stark in Winterfell takes a trophy/artifact (Bael's head) back to the castle. And the Stark Maid throws herself from a tower after seeing the artifact (Bael's head).
1. Thank you for numbering these. LOL... but yes, somewhat defensible and convenient, from my perpsective, as the tower long falllen lies between Starfall and northern battles (Bells, sack, etc).
2. AND by would-be abductors...
3. A singer gets the blame.... while... a doomed mother of a broken boy (Cat/Lysa) is thrown from a tower (Cat was thrown from the Twins)... a shrewd Bael-ish man helps hide a she-wolf who WANTED to escape her family and Winterfell... while... a prince chokes on his last breath.... and a Stark Maiden is blamed for his premature end. YES, yes, and Yes.
4. Really. Yes. Again. The SiW kills the KbtW (Vader/Lucifer?), then yes, sure as Dawn, the Moon Maiden falls into the sea (high/low tide...the return of the SotM? The Old Powers awakening? Jon, Ghost, Kings of Winter? Yes, yes and YES! lol).
This "real" ending makes much more sense if Lyanna's at Starfall and Arthur's the father--we know Ned fought and killed Arthur (somehow)--the Stark in Winterfell killing the father of the Stark maid's child. Then the Stark in Winterfell takes the sword Dawn (artifact) back to a castle with towers. Then, the role of dead woman gets split: Ashara throws herself from a tower, but the Stark maid actually dies in child birth.
There can be no doubt that the "somehow" was Howland Reed, the Frog, the Crannogman of Greywater Watch.
The only living "Starks in Winterfell" were Ned and Benjen... so either Arthur Dayne, or Mr X that Ben dispatched...which does remain a possibility. It might even explain why he was sent to the Wall.
Regarding the split womanhood of Ashara and Lyanna... is there a difference? Ashara is also said to have given birth around this time, and Lyanna had her bed of blood. I've wondered on the internets afore if these two women are actually one and the same, or mere sisters in tragedy.
The Stark Maid did not have a tower to throw herself from, unless it was the tower of joy...which makes that place important. Otherwise...
Starfall is the place, or, more specifically, the "Palestone Sword Tower" is the place.
Bottom line: nothing in the tower scene itself says anyone's in the tower. And Sansa's plot and the Bael Tale make a lot more sense in context if Lyanna's at Starfall.
At least that's my current take.
Yup. Mine too. :::
And, The Great Other, @serduncan, @danceswithflagons, Weasel Pie, markg171, Mojo... the smileys popup is growing too large to see on my iMac. Is it the same for you?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
- Don't need to invent a "they" when no one else is mentioned as being at the tower - Don't need to invent that the KG had the forebearance to have summoned a wetnurse to the TOJ while Lyanna was still alive when a wetnurse is only summoned when the mom dies or can't feed herself - Don't need to invent that Wylla is a midwife when she's only ever mentioned as being a wetnurse which is completely different - Don't need to invent that Wylla spent months squeezing her tits by herself to artificially stimulate her breasts to produce milk to conveniently nurse Jon when Lyanna dies instead of just having given birth herself recently - Don't need to invent that Ned carried around Lyanna's corpse for hundreds of miles in the heat of Dorne - Don't need to invent that Ned carried a newborn baby for hundreds of miles in the heat of Dorne - Don't need to invent that the TOJ had a room or bed for Lyanna when none are described - Don't need to invent that no one conveniently happened to see Jon with Ned at any point in any of Ned's travels - Don't need to invent that Nightsong, Kingsgrave, and Vulture's Roost all just have zero idea what goes on only a few hours away by horse ride from their castles - Don't need to invent this hundreds of mile long supply train to the TOJ - Don't need to invent that no one of the thousands of people who passed through the Prince's Pass just missed them at the TOJ or kept silent - Don't need to invent that the TOJ was previously abandoned so no one was expecting people there anyways - Don't need to invent that Ned ever went inside the tower when Ned only says he tore the thing down - Don't need to invent that Lyanna was ever there anyways when Eddard only mentions the fighters - Don't need to invent that the tower was a fully functioning tower capable of sustaining at least 5+ people for a year, yet pulldownable by Ned
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
- Don't need to invent that Wylla spent months squeezing her tits by herself to artificially stimulate her breasts to produce milk to conveniently nurse Jon when Lyanna dies instead of just having given birth herself recently
As does this.... only because I like the mental image it conjures... LOL
- Don't need to invent that Ned carried a newborn baby for hundreds of miles in the heat of Dorne - Don't need to invent that the TOJ had a room or bed for Lyanna when none are described - Don't need to invent that no one conveniently happened to see Jon with Ned at any point in any of Ned's travels - Don't need to invent that Nightsong, Kingsgrave, and Vulture's Roost all just have zero idea what goes on only a few hours away by horse ride from their castles - Don't need to invent this hundreds of mile long supply train to the TOJ - Don't need to invent that no one of the thousands of people who passed through the Prince's Pass just missed them at the TOJ or kept silent - Don't need to invent that the TOJ was previously abandoned so no one was expecting people there anyways
- Don't need to invent that Ned ever went inside the tower when Ned only says he tore the thing down
This cannot be repeated enough. The pull-downability of the tower as kingmonkey would state, is not something to be dismissed. Ned had at a maximum of seven horses. Not a small number, but not exactly a horde. And, we have no mention of rope, fire, or even great effort...AFTER facing one Ser Arthur Dayne, and nearly dying in the process. It seems increasingly unlikely to me, at least, that the tower was anything more than:
Enough to pull down yourself after a crazy fight, AND to build 8 otherwise unnecessary cairns.
- Don't need to invent that Lyanna was ever there anyways when Eddard only mentions the fighters - Don't need to invent that the tower was a fully functioning tower capable of sustaining at least 5+ people for a year, yet pulldownable by Ned
Yup.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Like the symbolism connections between the tower and Mirri's tent ritual.
And why did Arthur fight? Just for honor?
Did Arthur get a chance to tell Ned?
How much would the Daynes know?
Is there an echo between Ned Dayne, Sweetrobin, and Bran? The knight's squire, the Winged Knight wannabe, and the Winged Wolf who so wanted to be a knight--all tied to the places where moon-maids fell to earth?
And that's just for starters.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
A singer gets the blame.... while... a doomed mother of a broken boy (Cat/Lysa) is thrown from a tower (Cat was thrown from the Twins)... a shrewd Bael-ish man helps hide a she-wolf who WANTED to escape her family and Winterfell... while... a prince chokes on his last breath.... and a Stark Maiden is blamed for his premature end. YES, yes, and Yes.
I missed Cat as an echo--well done!
Martin keeps "splitting" the casting of his echoes into multiples. So, not just Lysa and Ashara, but Lysa, Ashara AND Cat. Yup!!!
4. Really. Yes. Again. The SiW kills the KbtW (Vader/Lucifer?), then yes, sure as Dawn, the Moon Maiden falls into the sea (high/low tide...the return of the SotM? The Old Powers awakening? Jon, Ghost, Kings of Winter? Yes, yes and YES! lol).
Yes--the tower's connection to Mirri's tent ritual--that's hard to shake once you see it. And that fight at the tower feels like a magical turning point. Like Cersei's dream which starts the same way is a fatal turning point (either at the time--maybe--OR now that Cersei remembers it--which seems more likely). Same with Varamyr's dream with the same wording--a magical shift for him. And setting up the reader for Jon's turning point at the end of the novel.
Regarding the split womanhood of Ashara and Lyanna... is there a difference? Ashara is also said to have given birth around this time, and Lyanna had her bed of blood. I've wondered on the internets afore if these two women are actually one and the same, or mere sisters in tragedy.
I think it goes back to the idea of "everything old is new again" in the novels. Multiples of every character. If Arthur is the father of Lyanna's child, and Ned is taking that child, Ashara and Lyanna's grief would be equally horrifying.
But I don't think they are the same--the key difference: wolf-maid. Arya thinks it's stupid for the lady to jump from a tower over her stupid prince. And even Sansa, thinking about the horror of Ned's murder, thinking about how her death would shame everyone (etc. etc.), just can't bring herself to do it.
Wolf-maids don't jump.
Which sounds like a terrible movie title ("You jump, but I don't jump Jack!")
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.