Post by voice on Jan 28, 2016 9:59:23 GMT
Yes--I don't think it is there.
But I'm thinking more and more Jon will need to take Dawn into the crypts. The dream where the kings come out of the tombs--that just seems so very Aragorn and the Men of Dunharrow-ish. A move Aragorn makes after getting Anduril reforged. After Boromir hears the voice in the west (vs. Dawn) calling to "seek the sword that was broken. In Imladris it dwells." And if the map ends up being at all accurate, Starfall is in a river "valley"--still has red mountains on either side until the Torrentine dumps into the sea.
Stopping Tolkien references now.
/JK Rowling references
Yes, RLJ makes it hard to see other things. I had someone insist that the parallels between the end of the Bael Tale and Ned's Fight/Arthur's Death/ Ashara's suicide were just random connections. If they did mean anything, it just meant that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. I couldn't follow the argument.
1. Hadn't thought of the tent as being a mirror/glimpse into Dany's mind. Will re-read and get back to you--but that sounds very cool.
2. I agree on the inverse--self-sacrifice vs. ordering the sacrifice of something else. What happens at the tower and Starfall reads more like a non-ritualized ritual (I sound like Rumsfeld's Known Unknowns But hopefully you take my point).
2. I do, and agree. Definitely feels like a shitstorm/tragedy that could only be seen as a "ritual" in hindsight.
My best guess is that it's a combo. The totality of it all coming in on her and she snapped. We see Sansa almost get there when reliving Ned's death--but she's both afraid and a wolf. Ashara might not have been up to it. All of it at once.
And I agree re: Cersei. That was a good way to get it in. That her account matches Cat's memory is also helpful. They have part of the truth. But it could be a partial truth--a Dayne and a Stark. Just not the one Cersei and Cat think it is.
Cersei and Cat couldn't be more different, yet more alike. Cersei dealt Ned the slap Catelyn always wanted to give him. Catelyn saw her son become the respected king that Cersei always wanted for her own....
Yeah--I don't like this either. But I do think there's a chance of a love affair with Rheagar. Arya's hearing a song about a stupid lady throwing herself from a tower over her stupid prince.
Not much to go on, but maybe. Dany??? Jon and Dany not Targ aunt and nephew, but Dayne cousins?
It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo, but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold. The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness," he had announced.
He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall. When Dareon had first appeared at the Happy Port, Arya had almost asked if he would take her with him back to Eastwatch, until she heard him telling Bethany that he was never going back. "Hard beds, salt cod, and endless watches, that's the Wall," he'd said. "Besides, there's no one half as pretty as you at Eastwatch. How could I ever leave you?" He had said the same thing to Lanna, Cat had heard, and to one of the whores at the Cattery, and even to the Nightingale the night he played at the House of Seven Lamps.
--------
It's more to go on than we have for Lyanna loving Rhaegar, actually.
Yes, he could go on. But Ned's hardly verbose. And the attack on Bran is the key point in this scene. That's the thing she did that he finds so vile in this moment. So. .. would a laundry list of her sins help all that much???
Yes, an attack on Lyanna's possible, too-- that's one of Lady Dyanna's theories. That Lysa's anger at Sansa echoes Ashara's at Lyanna. I'd add that it also echoes Lady Barbrey's anger in the crypts in front of Lyanna's tomb.
But if there's wolf-blood fault, I'm more likely to think it echoes Sansa and Arya--making foolish, impulsive moves that get them into scrapes far worse than they deserve.
Brandon might've failed to kill the prince, but Lyanna didn't.
That might have come off more snarky than I intended. But really--are any of the arguments on Heresy or here really "heretical" in terms of the text itself?
I re-read that during the Westeros Arthur Heresy debate--the way Edric is presented, with Arya (Lyanna echo) starting at hearing Beric call him Ned. Her first into to his name and she thinks of Eddard. Then, during the battle, she thinks she should be able to fight like him. Then the convo--how he tells her he wanted to meet her father. Her reactions to him. He brings up Ashara--again. AFTER we've had the Bael Tale in Clash.
I can't think of ANY reason for all of that to be in the novel save to draw a big red (or purple) circle around the tie between Winterfell and Starfall. And to Jon in particular.
A red circle with milk that comes out of it. (sorry) LOL
YUP!!!
Ah!! I did not express myself feel. The above is what I meant. Once the Stark maids are in hiding (after impulsive behavior) they have major buyer's remorse.
Yeah--I get a bit crazy with the Dawn references, too. Hard not to overdo once you see it. Putting them in context helps.
And you are the one who pointed out the "Sword of the Morning still hung in the south" quote to me. Put into context--and my first OP practically wrote itself.
But if we are discussing whether or not Jon was born at Starfall, the role of Arthur has to be considered, period.
But yes, back to the Dawn references... We must also factor in that the many, MANY times a "sunrise" is mentioned, or a "rising sun"... that it makes for a nice homophone and metaphor for the "rising Son". Always liked this one:
A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I
Outside, Tyrion swallowed a lungful of the cold morning air and began his laborious descent of the steep stone steps that corkscrewed around the exterior of the library tower. It was slow going; the steps were cut high and narrow, while his legs were short and twisted. The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."
It reminds me of the warmth fleeing from Jon at this moment. No doubt it will return at Dawn, just as His Ghost always does.
Jan 27, 2016 4:08:33 GMT Mojo said:
ETA: do we have a physical description for Dawn in the books? It would be neat if it did shimmer with like coats of glass and had a pommel encrusted with emeralds and diamondsETA 2: Mods: IS this considered a derailment? It's hard for me to keep the relevance of the connections of Dawn with Jon away from evidence of him being born at Starfall. But if you want to uh...mod me...feel free to let me know and I can move my sword posts.
A Storm of Swords - Jon IV
The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.
2. I don't see a derailment... but I'm still catching up. Jon at Starfall, to me, implies Dawn, Arthur, Ashara, Wylla, Ned, Lyanna, etc... by extension, I think that also includes Dany given the evidence we've tossed in the pot.