I'm changing my vote. Originally had Lyanna, but now I'm questioning that. For now I put down Ned, but I'm not sure if he was too big or not. Could it have been Benjen?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I waffle between Ned and Howland on this. But, given how the Reeds tell the story like a parable and/or fairytale, like it's proof of the power of the old gods--am thinking they might know it was Howland. That he got some sort of magical aid. And that's one possible reason why they're surprised Bran doesn't know--they assume such a tale of magics would have been told.
If it didn't involve magical intervention--then yeah, I think it was Ned.
The Reeds are clearly divided on the subject, Meera lets it known that she thinks the Knight was a crannogman:
"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one."
...
We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly.
...
"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."
While Jojen contradicts Meera and is all concerned about whether or not Bran's father told him the story:
"...He might have been a crannogman, that one."
"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."
...
"You never heard this tale from your father?" asked Jojen.
...
"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"
IMO it clearly shows Meera is pro-Howland, while Jojen is pro-Ned.
I'm pro Howland, interesting the kids don't know either.
Also interesting how we had almost the same group of members at SH, and almost nobody picked Lyanna there. WWS, I think we both share the opinion the story is about Howland & Ned's friendship, not Rhaegar & Lyanna's romance, I just picked a different player in the armor.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I'm pro Howland, interesting the kids don't know either.
Also interesting how we had almost the same group of members at SH, and almost nobody picked Lyanna there. WWS, I think we both share the opinion the story is about Howland & Ned's friendship, not Rhaegar & Lyanna's romance, I just picked a different player in the armor.
Agreed. The story makes no sense if the Reeds know that Lyanna is TKOLT, which neither assume. After all, why would they expect a story about his aunt being told to Brandon. I mean stop to think about it for a minute, how many parents tell their children stories of how their siblings did wild things all the time on a regular basis? The only situations I can think of were where said child was channeling said sibling--and even then such a story would be told only in a quiet bonding moment, not over and over and over again.
However if the story is about the beginning of Howland and Ned's friendship, and is framed as such to the Reed children, it makes a little more sense as to why they would expect--or at least Jojen expects--for Ned to have told his children this story.
It also is redundant IMO if Lyanna is TKOLT as she's already beat up the squires at that point.
And a rather dark note, note that in the story that Howland isn't asking for justice, he's point blank saying he's asking for revenge. Which adds a darker tone to Howland's character than I think most assume he has.
However I will add a point that Ned being TKOLT adds nothing to the story going forward. It's informative of the past, but it's not going to be of any importance moving forward. The argument I'd make for Lyanna is that if she's TKOLT, it brings potential meaning to the future of the story, but that's about the only thing I can think of.
As a counterpoint to that though, it wouldn't be the first time we get backstory on a character who died after they've died as a player in the story, as a way to fill out the world.
The important connection though is the ones made between Lyanna, Benjen, Ned, and Howland. Brandon appears to be on the periphery of the story as a whole, present but not important to it.
IMO it clearly shows Meera is pro-Howland, while Jojen is pro-Ned.
Perhaps. But I also thought Jojen was trying to get Bran to focus on the supernatural aspects. Jojen seems to want to foster Bran's belief in the Children and the old gods. Who Howland prays to for help. And, given that Ned holds to the old gods, I'd been reading the "your father never mentioned this" lines as, "your father never told you this miraculous story of old-god-divine-intervention?"
Jojen doesn't know Ned. But the story does describe him as the quiet wolf. Too shy to ask the girl to dance. Seems like there's a reasonable chance the Reeds would know Ned wouldn't blow his own horn re: being the knight. If they do know that, seems like Jojen would have another reason behind saying "didn't daddy tell you?"
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It also is redundant IMO if Lyanna is TKOLT as she's already beat up the squires at that point.
Good point. Story reads to me like a Stark group effort of support for Howland. Plus, as far as I can tell from the story, Lyanna starts roaring before attacking the squires. Seems like she drives them off more than besting them with amazing martial skills. The family supports Howland with force of will and kindness and support.
And a rather dark note, note that in the story that Howland isn't asking for justice, he's point blank saying he's asking for revenge. Which adds a darker tone to Howland's character than I think most assume he has.
Another good point. And, given that, seems like the power/confidence he might have gained from being the knight would translate into his "saving" Ned at the tower. Method to be determined. Also translates into why Jojen is do sure the old gods can help Bran. But gives Howland and his kids a side other than "we love the old gods." And wondering if that comes into play when/if Bran decides the Children aren't what he'd thought they'd be. Jojen already seems less than thrilled.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It also is redundant IMO if Lyanna is TKOLT as she's already beat up the squires at that point.
Good point. Story reads to me like a Stark group effort of support for Howland. Plus, as far as I can tell from the story, Lyanna starts roaring before attacking the squires. Seems like she drives them off more than besting them with amazing martial skills. The family supports Howland with force of will and kindness and support.
She's described as going at the squires with a tourney sword (seems like she was likely practicing with it when Daddy wasn't around to watch her). But overall I agree that the entire Stark family has to help in some manner, of which only Brandon seems to not do something...
Aug 11, 2015 11:33:26 GMT -4 SlyWren said:
Aug 7, 2015 21:02:29 GMT -4 whitewolfstark said: And a rather dark note, note that in the story that Howland isn't asking for justice, he's point blank saying he's asking for revenge. Which adds a darker tone to Howland's character than I think most assume he has.
Another good point. And, given that, seems like the power/confidence he might have gained from being the knight would translate into his "saving" Ned at the tower. Method to be determined. Also translates into why Jojen is do sure the old gods can help Bran. But gives Howland and his kids a side other than "we love the old gods." And wondering if that comes into play when/if Bran decides the Children aren't what he'd thought they'd be. Jojen already seems less than thrilled.
Agreed with your postulation, and further develops them and why they would maintain a rivalry with House Frey all these years (peaceful backwoodsy types aren't the types to foster long-standing feuds after all. But if Howland and the Reeds have a dark streak of vengeance running through them... well, that makes a lot more sense as to why the grudge would hold.
Little guy. Wanted time stir shit up. Was trying to impress Cat. Idk... LOL
Are you describing yourself? A little guy that likes to stir up shit? ::bananaknight::
LOL! Well played madam! But no, in real life I'm very big (any Robin Hood: Men in Tights fans in the house?). LOL
I do sit a horse pretty well though, and I have no armor, so it would likely be ill fitting. I can project my voice pretty well too. I also have an affinity for laughing, and heart trees. Hmm...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ned was sitting next to Lyanna when Rhaegar lay the beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He was sending a message, but it wasn't a threat and it wasn't a taunt, and it most certainly was not romantic. He was acknowledging that Lyanna had a part in helping Howland defeat so many in the tilt and paving the way for Rhaegar to be the final victor. He was sharing his win and giving credit where he thought credit was due.
I've never seen it pointed out this way, but the KOTLT did help clear the field for Rhaegar, who'd never won a tournament before. Where before there were 5 champions, the KOTLT dropped that number down to 3 by consolidating three of the championships into one, and when they never resurfaced, there were now only 2 champions in the tournament. That's taking out a significant amount of opposition for whoever would end up winning the tournament
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Post by whitewolfstark on Sept 28, 2015 1:57:19 GMT
First off, Melisandra, it's in ASOS.
I've always been of the opinion that Lyanna makes sense if the story is moving forward and draws upon this as pertinent backstory for a later reveal. In the narrative of Lyanna being the right mother for a Visenya in Rhaegar's eye it would make perfect sense.
But quite frankly I'm a fan of Ned being the KNOTLT, as it would not only make the most sense given the situation (Ned fits the qualities of the TKOTLT acceptably well without leaving any holes to explain things--like how could Lyanna make a "booming" voice sound convincing without giving away that she's a woman?) but it explains the one big question I have about the series: how the heck did Howland and Ned get to be such great friends in the first place?
The story is clearly framed as why House Reed is so loyal to this generation of Starks, so it would make practical sense.
And I think the text makes it rather clear that the Reed siblings are divided on who they think it is, Meera clearly thinking it was their father (she makes a few references to crannog pride in association with TKOTLT), while Jojen clearly thought it was Ned (Jojen constantly is asking why Bran's father never told him the story--an easy assumption to make if Jojen believes TKOTLT to be Ned). So both our story tellers have biases as they tell the story.
But yeah, I do admit Lyanna is a viable candidate otherwise outside of my preference for Ned. Her father let her ride the rings as a girl, which is training in how to joust, and the rest of the story consistently depicts Lyanna as the interested party in defending Howland moreso than her brothers (which is why I think it can't be Lyanna as almost the entire action is all about Lyanna then--and she already "showed those squires" a thing or two herself, so why the overkill with their knights?).
Ned was sitting next to Lyanna when Rhaegar lay the beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He was sending a message, but it wasn't a threat and it wasn't a taunt, and it most certainly was not romantic. He was acknowledging that Lyanna had a part in helping Howland defeat so many in the tilt and paving the way for Rhaegar to be the final victor. He was sharing his win and giving credit where he thought credit was due.
I like this a lot. Makes perfect sense to me.
That being said.....the laurel made from blue roses, the rarest of rare flowers grown in the gardens of Winterfell? That can't be mere coincidence. Still puzzling on that one.
(BTW - anyone else think the blue color might be the result of mixing that Tyroshi snail dye in with the soil? /random )
Howland Reed worked some type of magic. Either he got inside the minds of the Kingsguard, Arthur Dayne in particular, to confuse them, or he called back shadows of Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Mark Roswell, and Lord Dustin wielding their shadow swords.
HAHAAAAAAA! Now you're speaking my language! Back to the comics I go - I guarantee it's in there! LOL
quite frankly I'm a fan of Ned being the KNOTLT, as it would not only make the most sense given the situation (Ned fits the qualities of the TKOTLT acceptably well without leaving any holes to explain things--like how could Lyanna make a "booming" voice sound convincing without giving away that she's a woman?) but it explains the one big question I have about the series: how the heck did Howland and Ned get to be such great friends in the first place?
The story is clearly framed as why House Reed is so loyal to this generation of Starks, so it would make practical sense.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus