Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 28, 2015 19:18:38 GMT
I do think you may be on to something here. I'm still of the opinion that the KOTLT was Lyanna somehow being augumented by Holwand Reed's magic, but I've never been really sure about what type of magic would have accopmlished this. But after reading your post, I'm now wondering if the reverse could have happened, Howland Reed as the Knight with a mental link with Lyanna supplying him with the ability to ride the horse. Which also explains Jojen's ambivelant answer as to whether the knight was the crannogman. Perhaps technically it was Howland wearing the armor, but mentally he was channeling Lyanna, or Barandon, or Eddard. Anyway interesting ideas.
But after reading your post, I'm now wondering if the reverse could have happened, Howland Reed as the Knight with a mental link with Lyanna supplying him with the ability to ride the horse. Which also explains Jojen's ambivelant answer as to whether the knight was the crannogman.
I really like this. Howland + Lyanna = KotLT has a nice ring to it in more ways than one. It doesn't make sense for Lyanna to have a booming voice, and it doesn't make sense for Howland to be able to fight well all of a sudden. I'm not sure whether or not we have reason to assume Howland would not be a fine horseman in his own right, but the addition of Lyanna would certainly make him far more formidable in a tilt.
And yes! This would make Jojen's 'maybe, maybe not' statement make a lot more sense, particularly given Jojen's experience with Old Gods powers.
What you are saying about Lyanna is what I've been saying about Ned, and I think it was Ned, because the story mentions Howland sleeping in Ned's tent and it would explain the booming voice. Lyanna and Howland couldn't produce that.
I think Lyanna fits better here for the influence (wolf-blood sounds a lot like wargness to me), and perhaps Brandon for the booming voice. Brandon and his more-than-a-touch of wolf-blood might fit even better. Is Ned ever said to have had a booming voice? I know Jon Arryn valued it for command in battle, but Ned is the "quiet wolf" in this story.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I've always been of the opinion that Lyanna makes sense if the story is moving forward and draws upon this as pertinent backstory for a later reveal. In the narrative of Lyanna being the right mother for a Visenya in Rhaegar's eye it would make perfect sense.
First off, wow. Great post!
As one who formerly ascribed to that line of thought, yes! That is pretty much the only scenario which requires Lyanna be the KotLT!
But quite frankly I'm a fan of Ned being the KNOTLT, as it would not only make the most sense given the situation (Ned fits the qualities of the TKOTLT acceptably well without leaving any holes to explain things--like how could Lyanna make a "booming" voice sound convincing without giving away that she's a woman?) but it explains the one big question I have about the series: how the heck did Howland and Ned get to be such great friends in the first place?
And I think the text makes it rather clear that the Reed siblings are divided on who they think it is, Meera clearly thinking it was their father (she makes a few references to crannog pride in association with TKOTLT), while Jojen clearly thought it was Ned (Jojen constantly is asking why Bran's father never told him the story--an easy assumption to make if Jojen believes TKOTLT to be Ned). So both our story tellers have biases as they tell the story.
Another great point. I always thought Jojen's tone sounded a tad incredulous when asking Bran if he was sure he'd never heard the story. And I agree, spunky Meera definitely thinks it was their father.
But yeah, I do admit Lyanna is a viable candidate otherwise outside of my preference for Ned. Her father let her ride the rings as a girl, which is training in how to joust, and the rest of the story consistently depicts Lyanna as the interested party in defending Howland moreso than her brothers (which is why I think it can't be Lyanna as almost the entire action is all about Lyanna then--and she already "showed those squires" a thing or two herself, so why the overkill with their knights?).
What troubles me about both Ned and Lyanna is the booming voice. Might be, the helm alone made it sound booming, but it is hard for me to imagine either the very young she-wolf, or the quiet wolf, having a booming voice.
Mayhaps the quiet wolf had a loud bark after all?
And speaking of Bark, that laughing weirwood would be a very clever disguise for quiet/melancholy Ned Stark.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
What troubles me about both Ned and Lyanna is the booming voice. Might be, the helm alone made it sound booming, but it is hard for me to imagine either the very young she-wolf, or the quiet wolf, having a booming voice.
Mayhaps the quiet wolf had a loud bark after all?
A quiet wolf is still a wolf, and all wolves can howl. Even the quietest of wolves.
When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves. There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.
Ghost, the quietest wolf of them all, can still howl when he wants to.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
What troubles me about both Ned and Lyanna is the booming voice. Might be, the helm alone made it sound booming, but it is hard for me to imagine either the very young she-wolf, or the quiet wolf, having a booming voice.
Mayhaps the quiet wolf had a loud bark after all?
A quiet wolf is still a wolf, and all wolves can howl. Even the quietest of wolves.
When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves. There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.
Ghost, the quietest wolf of them all, can still howl when he wants to.
I'm not sure if Ghost's "howl" isn't Jon crying out in his sleep, or some kind of old gods spirit-howl or silent signal sort of thing. But, I agree. It makes sense that Ned could howl. But loudly? A booming voice? That doesn't sound very Ned.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
A quiet wolf is still a wolf, and all wolves can howl. Even the quietest of wolves.
Ghost, the quietest wolf of them all, can still howl when he wants to.
I'm not sure if Ghost's "howl" isn't Jon crying out in his sleep, or some kind of old gods spirit-howl or silent signal sort of thing. But, I agree. It makes sense that Ned could howl. But loudly? A booming voice? That doesn't sound very Ned.
Well...
It was the king’s voice that put an end to it … the king’s voice and twenty swords . Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. “STOP THIS MADNESS,” he boomed , “IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!”
Unless we imagine that Robert was the only one to pick up on Jon Arryn's instruction, I would imagine he might have had some practice at this as well.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I'm not sure if Ghost's "howl" isn't Jon crying out in his sleep, or some kind of old gods spirit-howl or silent signal sort of thing. But, I agree. It makes sense that Ned could howl. But loudly? A booming voice? That doesn't sound very Ned.
Well...
It was the king’s voice that put an end to it … the king’s voice and twenty swords . Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. “STOP THIS MADNESS,” he boomed , “IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!”
Unless we imagine that Robert was the only one to pick up on Jon Arryn's instruction, I would imagine he might have had some practice at this as well.
Agreed, and I just read that chapter today. I mentioned Jon Arryn's tutelage in my earlier comment, and I really liked WWS's breakdown. But this is one more wrinkle that makes it difficult to put a finger on the KotLT's identity. It makes sense that Ned would be able to howl and boom, but we never hear him. He's a pretty quiet wolf.
Now, that would make his disguise all the more brilliant... Who associates Ned with laughing and booming? But, that brilliance also seems uncharacteristic. I love Ned, don't get me wrong, but he isn't exactly sharp of mind.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm not sure if Ghost's "howl" isn't Jon crying out in his sleep, or some kind of old gods spirit-howl
Well in a discussion as to whether Howland had been possessed or not, wouldn't that be the perfect example if that were the case? That Ghost only ever makes a noise, in all 5 novels AFAIK, when Jon happens to be subconsciously warging him? I.e when Ghost isn't the only one in control of his body, he suddenly can speak when before he never makes a sound?
It makes sense that Ned could howl. But loudly? A booming voice? That doesn't sound very Ned.
It does though
It was the king's voice that put an end to it … the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!"
Robert learned from Jon Arryn that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and he has that voice and can use it. And Ned says that Jon Arryn taught them that lesson, so Ned learned the same lesson that Robert did. If Robert had the same lesson that he did, then it stands to reason that Ned can also project his voice so that he is heard whenever he's on the battlefield.
Which is exactly what Ned made sure to teach Robb and Jon
"No," Donal Noye roared at three of the Mole's Town men, down below. "The pitch goes to the hoist, the oil up the steps, crossbow bolts to the fourth, fifth, and sixth landings, spears to first and second. Stack the lard under the stair, yes, there, behind the planks. The casks of meat are for the barricade. Now, you poxy plow pushers, NOW!" He has a lord's voice, Jon thought. His father had always said that in battle a captain's lungs were as important as his sword arm. "It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard," Lord Eddard told his sons, so Robb and he used to climb the towers of Winterfell to shout at each other across the yard. Donal Noye could have drowned out both of them. The moles all went in terror of him, and rightfully so, since he was always threatening to rip their heads off.
And elsewhere Donal Noye is described as having a booming voice, and here Jon said that Donal has a lord's voice after just hearing him roaring at men, and that thought brings him back to Eddard making sure that his sons would know that they must be able to project their voices to be successful in battle. Ned is a successful battlefield commander, and according to him that would never happen if his commands cannot be heard by his men.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Well in a discussion as to whether Howland had been possessed or not, wouldn't that be the perfect example if that were the case? That Ghost only ever makes a noise, in all 5 novels AFAIK, when Jon happens to be subconsciously warging him? I.e when Ghost isn't the only one in control of his body, he suddenly can speak when before he never makes a sound?
Robert learned from Jon Arryn that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and he has that voice and can use it. And Ned says that Jon Arryn taught them that lesson, so Ned learned the same lesson that Robert did. If Robert had the same lesson that he did, then it stands to reason that Ned can also project his voice so that he is heard whenever he's on the battlefield.
Which is exactly what Ned made sure to teach Robb and Jon
And elsewhere Donal Noye is described as having a booming voice, and here Jon said that Donal has a lord's voice after just hearing him roaring at men, and that thought brings him back to Eddard making sure that his sons would know that they must be able to project their voices to be successful in battle. Ned is a successful battlefield commander, and according to him that would never happen if his commands cannot be heard by his men.
Okay, okay, I'm sold. It is very circumstantial, but I'm sold. :::
#BoomingNed
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by Direwolf Blitzer on Sept 29, 2015 14:10:53 GMT
If Benjen, not Ned, is offering Howland his armor, how is Ned going to be mistaken for Howland, and vice versa? Anyone watching should know that the KotLT is either too short to be Ned or too tall to be Howland, no?
If Benjen, not Ned, is offering Howland his armor, how is Ned going to be mistaken for Howland, and vice versa? Anyone watching should know that the KotLT is either too short to be Ned or too tall to be Howland, no?
This would be a fairly young Ned, and Ned isn't an especially large man. Don't see why he couldn't fit the size description.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
If Benjen, not Ned, is offering Howland his armor, how is Ned going to be mistaken for Howland, and vice versa? Anyone watching should know that the KotLT is either too short to be Ned or too tall to be Howland, no?
Meera described the crannogman of being small, and the mystery knight was short. My theory is that Howland is the knight, but that Ned provided the skill by skinchanging into Howland. What I am suggesting is a cooperative blending of two people to make the KotLT. Bran in Hodor is the example, except instead of an inferior mind and unwilling host, Howland was an accomplished sorcerer that would have willingly participated in the skinchanging.
But Ned wasn't a skinchanger. If you are suggesting Howland was, then that is like Bran skinchanging Hodor while a-horse as Bran, riding Dancer against a foe.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."