I've changed my vote from Ned to Ben. It has nothing to do with the video above, which I haven't even watched yet. I was just thinking that if Ben is young, long legged mayhaps, but too young to be of any great height, and was gifted enough to one day become First Ranger of the Night's Watch, that he was no slouch with sword and lance.
Ben also would have been taught to use a loud, booming, battle-command voice.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Jon smiled. Ben Stark laughed. "As I feared. Ah, well. I believe I was younger than you the first time I got truly and sincerely drunk." He snagged a roasted onion, dripping brown with gravy, from a nearby trencher and bit into it. It crunched. His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes. He dressed in black, as befitted a man of the Night's Watch. Tonight it was rich black velvet, with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped round his neck. Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. "A very quiet wolf," he observed. "He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black." "There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings." Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?"
Our introduction to the Mystery Knight with the Laughing Tree painted upon his shield:
Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet." "No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face." "Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him." "Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged." "The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you." "Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"
Jon, who as a bastard has dedicated himself to observing the details others miss, and the truth people hide behind their eyes, notices that behind Benjen's eyes, lies laughter.
Ben is amused by the wolf, who is of course colored like the KotLT's shield. Notably, Ben also notices several details. Unlike the direwolves he has heard on his rangings north of the Wall, Ghost is "a very quiet wolf". Ben is not quiet. Rather, he interrupts his nephew's drinking:
"Is this one of the direwolves I've heard so much of?" a familiar voice asked close at hand. Jon looked up happily as his uncle Ben put a hand on his head and ruffled his hair much as Jon had ruffled the wolf's. "Yes," he said. "His name is Ghost." One of the squires interrupted the bawdy story he'd been telling to make room at the table for their lord's brother. Benjen Stark straddled the bench with long legs and took the wine cup out of Jon's hand. "Summerwine," he said after a taste. "Nothing so sweet. How many cups have you had, Jon?"
While seemingly tangential, I think it is noteworthy for this debate. Ned is not as loud, and not as bold. Benjen is more outgoing, and better fits the precedent Bran gave us just above. I'll repeat it:
And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor,the first time when he was only ten.
We know that Ned was a year younger than Brandon, with Brandon being born in 262 and Ned in 263, as it says so in TWOIAF. And based off Bran's (seemingly) vision of Benjen and Lyanna, they seemed to be 2 years apart if he first thought it was a vision of himself and Arya who are two years apart. At the very least we know that Benjen was younger than Lyanna because he's called the "young" wolf in the KOTLT story. But again, we're never really given any indication of Benjen's own age either though in the books. No one in AGOT's or stuff says like he's 30 years old or anything so we don't know when he was born either.
It's really just that we know for sure when Brandon and Eddard were born, we know that Lyanna was older than Benjen, possibly by 2 years, and that Lyanna died at 16.
Lyanna was born in 266 at the earliest, and 267 at the latest. So this means she was about 14 years old at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and Ben would likely have been around 12.
That is well within the range of Barristan Selmy's precedent for young Mystery Knights.
Add to this that Benjen is the only Stark associated with laughter as a character trait, and I think this makes for a very plausible candidacy for KotLT.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
That video was also posted on Reddit, so I'm just going to copy the argument I made there. The knight was Ned.
- We know from Arya that Harwin, Robb, and Jon (those three at least), were all taught how to joust at Winterfell as she remembers watching them. Jon also mentions that Robb is a better lance than him. Brandon himself is jousting in the tourney. Jousting is taught at Winterfell, and so Ned would've been taught to joust as a boy. - He'd have especially been taught and made to joust when he moved to the Vale, where knighthood and tourneys are very popular. Robert, the man he was warded alongside, after all was said to joust, even if he preferred the melee. Ned would have plenty of experience jousting due to being a ward of Jon Arryn's, even if he himself possibly chose not to enter the lists, or at least not enter every tourney he went to with Jon and Robert. - The knight does literally everything correct: enters the lists, salutes the king, rides to the pavilions, challenges the champions, unhorses them, waits for them to come attempt to ransom their armour and horses, etc. The knight has clearly been to a tourney or two before. Ned has the most experience with tourneys due to his time in the Vale. - Ned tells us that Jon Arryn taught both he and Robert how to make a voice that can be heard in battle. Robert proceeds to use that exact voice Jon taught them at the Hand's Tourney, and Ned describes it as a booming voice. Jon also tells a story of how Ned taught Robb and him how being able to be heard in battle is incredibly important, and that they used to practice trying to be heard across vast distances. Ned therefore can make the booming voice the knight did. - The knight is described in the story has being short of stature, as well as slim in TWOIAF. Jon is described as looking exactly like a younger version of Ned from many different sources, including Ned himself. From our very first introduction to Jon Bran notes that Jon isn't big and muscular, nor growing everyday like Robb. AKA slim and short. After saving Jeor's life Jon is given Longclaw and Jeor says that Jon is too short to wear it at his hip and needs to wear it on his back. As of ADWD at 17, Jon is still wearing it on his back. Stannis Baratheon is also said to tower above Jon. Jon is short, and he's 17. Ned was 18 at Harrenhal. If Jon looks like Ned did when Ned was younger, then Ned was also slim and short. Conveniently enough, Cat says that when she first met Ned, a year later when he was 19, she was disappointed by how much shorter he was than Brandon. - Ned offers Howland a space in his tent to sleep. That same night, Howland goes and prays for someone to avenge him against the knights. The person most likely to have walked in on Howland praying, and therefore to have known Howland wanted revenge as Howland said nothing at the feast, is Ned considering Ned is the one who would notice Howland isn't in their tent. They'd also be the only one to know that Howland has asked the gods for help and not the Starks, which would require dressing as a mystery knight. - Jojen spends the whole story repeatedly asking Bran if specifically Ned had ever told this story. Jojen seems to think Ned was the knight. - The knight wants the other knights to chastise their squires and teach them honour. Ned is the most honour obsessed one there, and Ned is rich enough that he needs neither horse nor armour and thus can be completely satisfied with just the honor lesson for ransom. - Ned tells Bran that the current Kingsguard aren't the best knights in the realm like they used to be. One of those knights is of course Ser Boros Blount. House Blount's sigil is a porcupine, and they're the only house who has one. One of the champions the knight defeated was the porcupine knight. Boros is the only knight of House Blount we've ever heard of, and he seems exactly like the kind of guy who'd have been lax in teaching his squire honour. If Ned defeated Boros at Harrenhal, and had witnessed that Boros was doing a poor job teaching his squire, then it helps explain why Ned is sure the KG have declined: because he beat one. And he beat one in the same tourney where he watched Oswell Whent defend his title for at least a day (he's the only initial champion not said to fall at the end of the first day but we don't know when he eventually loses), he watched Arthur make it to the semi-finals, and he watched Barristan make it to the finals. Boros was lesser than them, but Ned beat him.
Ned is the only one who can check off everything.
Lyanna
- Great rider, but the story never said the knight rode well, it said the gods gave strength to its arm (AKA good lancer). Very odd detail to just never say the knight rode well if that's the only thing Lyanna had going for her - Has never jousted - Has never been to a tourney and wouldn't be able to pull off the tourney etiquette - Is actually said to have been taller than Benjen so we can't assume she was short - Cannot make the booming voice, let alone speak in front of thousands without anybody realizing the knights a girl
Brandon
- Plenty skilled enough, but was already jousting anyways - Too tall - Didn't really seem to give a shit about Howland
Benjen
- Trained to joust - Shorter than Lyanna, and the youngest there - Is the one who came up with the idea of Howland competing against the knights in the first place, and specifically in mismatched armour - Has a ready laugh and smile lines as an older man, fits the laughing tree - The 8 year old Walders are better jousters than some of the knights at King's Landing, so a 13 year old Benjen could've been better than the knights at Harrenhal - Is most likely in the midst of puberty however and therefore can't make the booming voice. Nor was ever trained to make one anyways as a 3rd son.
Unless the knight actually was just a random knight who happened to challenge those 3 knights and want their squires taught better, Ned fits the evidence best of anybody involved with Howland. All you really have to do is accept that he competed as a mystery knight and proceeded to never tell anybody. And we know he at least did the last part considering Bran repeatedly says he has never heard this story before, yet immediately recognized a story about Harrenhal.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
That is well within the range of Barristan Selmy's precedent for young Mystery Knights.
I would argue that better yet, the 8 year old Walders at Winterfell are better or equal jousters to a lot of the King's Landing knights
Bran watches the Walders ride at quintain (jousting practice) in ACOK
Their dappled grey coursers were swift, strong, and beautifully trained. Side by side they charged the quintains. Both hit the shields cleanly and were well past before the padded butts came spinning around. Little Walder struck the harder blow, but Bran thought Big Walder sat his horse better. He would have given both his useless legs for the chance to ride against either.
Little Walder cast his splintered lance aside, spied Bran, and reined up. "Now there's an ugly horse," he said of Hodor.
They both can hit the targets cleanly, dodge the arm that attacks them back, ride well, and Little Walder can break a lance.
Compare that to Jaime watching the King's Landing knights ride at quintain in AFFC
As Jaime trotted through the castle gates, he came upon two dozen knights riding at a quintain in the outer yard. Something else I can no longer do, he thought. A lance was heavier and more cumbersome than a sword, and swords were proving trial enough. He supposed he might try holding the lance with his left hand, but that would mean shifting his shield to his right arm. In a tilt, a man's foe was always to the left. A shield on his right arm would prove about as useful as nipples on his breastplate. No, my jousting days are done, he thought as he dismounted . . . but all the same, he stopped to watch awhile.
Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head. Strongboar struck the shield so hard he cracked it. Kennos of Kayce finished the destruction. A new shield was hung for Ser Dermot of the Rainwood. Lambert Turnberry only struck a glancing blow, but Beardless Jon Bettley, Humfrey Swyft, and Alyn Stackspear all scored solid hits, and Red Ronnet Connington broke his lance clean. Then the Knight of Flowers mounted up and put the others all to shame.
Ser Tallad the Tall is worse than them as he can't ride past a quintain without being hit. Ser Lambert Turnberry is worse than them as he can only hit a glancing blow. We have no idea how good Ser Dermot is, but given that Jaime remarks nothing about his pass, he's probably nothing special. Sers Jon Bettley, Humfrey Swyft, and Alyn Stackspear are their equals as they can hit the target well. Ser Ronnet hits as hard as Little Walder as he also breaks his lance. Only Strongboar, Kennos of Kayce (debateable really as he struck an already cracked shield but w/e) and Loras Tyrell are specifically noted as doing anything the 8 year old Freys can't.
Now it should be noted that there is a caveat as to why the King's Landing knights are likely so unnoteworthy: Ser Aron Santagar has been dead since ACOK and Cersei never bothered to replace him. None of them have had a master-at-arms coaching and training them, correcting their mistakes and tendencies and what not, for almost 2 years. They really should be seeing a dip in their quality of skill. But still, they're all knights and they should've all been trained anyways already.
Nonetheless, the Walders are better jousters than Ser Tallad and Ser Lambert, and are the equals of (likely) Ser Dermot, Ser Bettley, Ser Swyft, and Ser Stackspear, and Little Walder hits as hard as Ser Ronnet. And they're only 8. If Benjen is around 12 at Harrenhal, he definitely could be good enough of a jouster to be defeating knights. I hesitate about saying he could beat champion knights, but the precedent is definitely there that a boy, and boys training at Winterfell mind you, could be better than some knights.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
We know a fully adult Ned is described as "stocky" however.
I have never thought of Ned as being stocky or thick (bodied), and for some reason this surprises me? Where in the text does Ned get described this way? I hate to miss details like this.
Lyanna is the favorite idea as far as I can determine in the fandome, but just because Lyanna was a good rider, that does not mean she can easily joust. A lance is long and heavy and probably very awkward. I would imagine it takes a lot of practice and more importantly a lot of strength to be accurate enough to unseat three trained knights. While I think Lyanna was spunky and not afraid, I just doubt she had the training or physical strength to pull this off. Sorry, Lya!
I would have to throw my vote in for Eddard being the KOTLT. Based on a couple of things, mostly the "booming" voice hint and the "teach your squires honor" hint.
We get from Ned's own perspective when hearing Robert's "booming" voice at the Hands Tourney and recalling Jon Arryn's teaching in the Vale. It's an assumption, I suppose, but if Jon Arryn taught Robert to make his voice be heard, then he taught the same skill to Ned.
We know from Jon that Ned taught he and Robb that their voices needed to be heard over the commotion of battle. They practiced this and I would assume, as I previously said, that this was a skill Ned had. After all, he was a successful battle commander in Roberts Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion. I imagine a young Robert and Ned, practicing making their commands heard from the many towers in the Eyrie, just as Robb and Jon did at Winterfell.
I used to think the honor think r/t the KOTLT was too obvious to be Ned, but now I don't think it is that obvious. I mean, we the reader thinks of Ned as being honorable, but he never thinks of himself that way. Others do, but not Ned. But he might be willing to tell other's to teach their squires honor, and this might be why other character's use the word "honor" to describe Ned. Both because of his words and his actions.
In an earlier post markg171 , points out several great arguments for Ned as the KOTLT, but one that I have often considered (but Mark explained better than I could) is that even though we don't have an example of Ned competing in tourney's, as part of his training as a great Lords son and another great Lords ward, Ned would know how and been trained how to compete in tournaments.
- He'd have especially been taught and made to joust when he moved to the Vale, where knighthood and tourneys are very popular. Robert, the man he was warded alongside, after all was said to joust, even if he preferred the melee. Ned would have plenty of experience jousting due to being a ward of Jon Arryn's, even if he himself possibly chose not to enter the lists, or at least not enter every tourney he went to with Jon and Robert. - The knight does literally everything correct: enters the lists, salutes the king, rides to the pavilions, challenges the champions, unhorses them, waits for them to come attempt to ransom their armour and horses, etc. The knight has clearly been to a tourney or two before. Ned has the most experience with tourneys due to his time in the Vale.
Another thing that is interesting to me is the description of the KOTLT described as small or slight. Regardless of the size of a person, perception of how large they are might make them seem bigger or smaller. An average sized man riding a small horse would make the man seem larger than average, based on proportion, just as an average person riding a very large horse, might appear to be smaller than they really are. That is one of several ways a person could disguise themselves in plain sight. I think that if the horse the KOTLT was mounted on was large, this could have made the knight appear smaller than he/she actually was!
This has been a really interesting discussion to read through peoples comments. Lot's to think about!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.