Yay! I was about to just start talking to myself on the topic just because there's so much I want to go over.
When this analysis is finished, I want to compare the HotU chapter to Bran's weirwood cave chapter.
Oh, yes. The Singers in the roots of the trees remind me of the Undying.
And even to the House of Black and White (in the cave of skulls, all is black and white with no colors).
We have all been doing an awful lot of talking about this lately. Even if I have a bit of a different take on it, I'd really like to hear some other opinions on it. I'm feeling quite lonely in my analysis of it over on heresy... Could be that I'm just missing something.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Oh, yes. The Singers in the roots of the trees remind me of the Undying.
And even to the House of Black and White (in the cave of skulls, all is black and white with no colors).
We have all been doing an awful lot of talking about this lately. Even if I have a bit of a different take on it, I'd really like to hear some other opinions on it. I'm feeling quite lonely in my analysis of it over on heresy... Could be that I'm just missing something.
Do you mean a paragraph by paragraph analysis? Like on here?
Yay! I was about to just start talking to myself on the topic just because there's so much I want to go over.
When this analysis is finished, I want to compare the HotU chapter to Bran's weirwood cave chapter.
Ooh! Excited to see that! I'd love to hear some new ideas about it. Right now, I think that I'm the lone crazy person that sees those two scenes more in terms of their contrasts rather than their parallels. Not sure if I'm missing something...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
We have all been doing an awful lot of talking about this lately. Even if I have a bit of a different take on it, I'd really like to hear some other opinions on it. I'm feeling quite lonely in my analysis of it over on heresy... Could be that I'm just missing something.
Do you mean a paragraph by paragraph analysis? Like on here?
Not that detailed. You've probably seen most of the back and forth on heresy. Not that there was a ton of it, mind you. It has definitely been on my mind quite a bit.
I certainly wouldn't mind a more in depth analysis!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Yay! I was about to just start talking to myself on the topic just because there's so much I want to go over.
When this analysis is finished, I want to compare the HotU chapter to Bran's weirwood cave chapter.
Ooh! Excited to see that! I'd love to hear some new ideas about it. Right now, I think that I'm the lone crazy person that sees those two scenes more in terms of their contrasts rather than their parallels. Not sure if I'm missing something...
I would be interested in helping out with analysis a little bit. There are for sure contrasts between the two settings in the two chapters even besides the obvious differences of location etc.
Do you mean a paragraph by paragraph analysis? Like on here?
Not that detailed. You've probably seen most of the back and forth on heresy. Not that there was a ton of it, mind you. It has definitely been on my mind quite a bit.
I certainly wouldn't mind a more in depth analysis!
Ah ok, I will try to help out some with my limited talent at it haha
Ooh! Excited to see that! I'd love to hear some new ideas about it. Right now, I think that I'm the lone crazy person that sees those two scenes more in terms of their contrasts rather than their parallels. Not sure if I'm missing something...
I would be interested in helping out with analysis a little bit. There are for sure contrasts between the two settings in the two chapters even besides the obvious differences of location etc.
I'm still fairly new and learning about all this analysis part myself. Let's see what @prettypig has in mind and go from there. Sound good to you?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Alright so here's all the visions from the HOTU that I feel have mistakes/inaccuracies/problems
The Red Wedding
Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.
- Robb’s crown was bronze and iron, not just iron - Robb never sat a throne at the feast - There’s no mention of any arrows or crossbow quarrels when they’re what killed most of the guests
The House with the Red Door
I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. “Little princess, there you are,” he said in his gruff kind voice. “Come,” he said, “come to me, my lady, you’re home now, you’re safe now.” His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He’s dead, he’s dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.
- If you subscribe to Lemongate this house is not in Braavos - Ser Willem Darry has soft hands despite not only being a knight, but being the master at arms to the Red Keep. He spent his life wielding a sword, his hands should be rough. - Willem Darry is kind, but previously Dany had said in AGOT that he used to bellow at the servants - Willem Darry is described as old here and needing a cane to walk, but Willem Darry was still master-at-arms in 284 and had just broken Viserys and Dany out of Dragonstone in 284. The app says that Darry died when Dany was 5 so that makes it 289. So old age has to have hit him extremely hard for him to be the way he is here which can only be max 5 years after he was still kicking ass
Aerys ordering the burning of King's Landing
Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”
- She sees an old man. Aerys was 39 when he died. There's an SSM where GRRM supposedly told an artist to draw Aerys older than he should be as he'd prematurely aged, but that's not adding 30 years to the man. That's like making him look like he's 50. - She sees that Aerys has grey hair. Jaime tells us that Aerys had silver gold hair that was matted and unwashed - She sees that Aerys has dark eyes. We have no idea what colour eyes that Aerys had, but they should be purple. Dany only calls them dark - She sees Aerys say "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes." Whereas Jaime says that Aerys said "The traitors want my city, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat." - There’s no mention of the Iron Throne. Dany knows what the Iron Throne is but doesn’t call this throne that - Aerys is speaking to a man below him and from the throne. Jaime says this man was Rossart but he never gives us Rossart’s location in the room so it’s unclear if Aerys said this from the throne
Rhaegar and Elia with newborn Aegon
The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.
We have zero reference to Rhaegar's height or eye colour beyond this... so no idea whether he was indeed taller than Viserys and had a different eye colour.
“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
- Jon Connington says that Rhaenys' birth caused Elia to be bedridden for 6 months and that Aegon's birth nearly killed her. Here she is though nursing a newborn Aegon and talking to Rhaegar as though nothing's wrong when she just almost died - The overall tone of the vision. Barristan says Rhaegar and Elia married for duty but this seems like a cute loving family - It doesn’t hint whether or not this is King’s Landing or Dragonstone, but if it was King’s Landing it doesn’t make sense as Tywin tells us that Rhaegar’s room was one floor above Aegon’s nursery while relaying to Tyrion where Amory found Rhaenys (under Rhaegar’s bed) and where Gregor found Elia and Aegon (Aegon’s nursery). AKA the great wooden bed shouldn’t be in the same room as where Elia nurses Aegon
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."
- Rhaegar sees Dany. Dany obviously did not exist at this moment as it would be another 2 years before she was born
Rhaegar dying at the Trident
Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name
- Robert says he watched Rhaegar die and never mentions having seen or heard him say anything - Jorah Mormont says he was close enough to Robert and Rhaegar’s fight to see their blood trickling into the stream but he never says he heard or saw anything - Not one person who attempted to get Rhaegar’s rubies says that Rhaegar died saying Lyanna’s name (we don’t know anybody who personally did, but there’s songs of the fight and legends of the ruby ford but no Rhaegar dying saying Lyanna) - Dany heard the name as she says that it was a woman’s name, AKA not Billy or Joffrey which are boy’s names, but doesn’t say it was Lyanna despite knowing the name Lyanna, that Lyanna is a girl’s name, and that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a history - Robert crushed in Rhaegar’s chest with a warhammer so Rhaegar wouldn’t have been able to say anything as he wouldn't have had functioning lungs anymore - Rhaegar is dismounted in the stream yet he and Robert fought on horseback and GRRM has gone so far as to comment that artist always get that wrong by depicting them fighting on foot. AKA Rhaegar was never on his feet during the battle - The vision starts immediately after Robert hit Rhaegar (rubies are flying) but there’s no hammer in the vision despite the fact that Robert says he impaled Rhaegar through the heart with the spike of his warhammer. AKA Robert’s warhammer should be lodged in Rhaegar heart at this moment - There are no other combatants despite Ned and Jorah both saying they were there or nearby, that the fighting was going on all around Robert and Rhaegar, and that Robert himself is missing
Rhaego
A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.
- Presumably this is Rhaego, but Rhaego died so this never happened if so - Unclear really whether Rhaego would have looked like this. It’s not the perfect example but when Targaryens have children with Dornish people the children tend to look Dornish. And if Rhaego got Drogo’s skin I’d imagine he also got Drogo’s hair. - Rhaego would have been a Khal, not lord - The Dothraki don’t have banners, and not really sure why he’d have picked a fiery stallion if he adopted his own. The stallion represents he’s Dothraki, but his Targaryen heritage is supposed to be represented by a three headed dragon as that’s the Targaryen banner.
Stannis wielding Lightbringer
Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.
- Stannis definitely casts a shadow seeing as it was used twice for magic. If anything he should be depicted with a more powerful shadow given that his kills
The beast who breathes shadow fire
From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire
- Seems to be a dragon but the only dragons we’ve heard of are Valyrian (fire) and ice dragons. And neither’s made of stone or breathes shadow flames
MMD
Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow.
- This would seem to imply that MMD birthed Dany’s dragons but seems more likely that Drogo and Rhaego’s kingsblood did that
Blue flower
A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness
- a blue flower implies a blue winter rose which so far have only been known to grow in Winterfell. Not the Wall - winter roses only grow during winter and winter had not yet started in ACOK. So the only possibly solution is that it's a vision of the future or past and not something that's currently occurring as it's currently summer in ACOK - The Wall is made of ice. How is the flower surviving without soil? - if the blue flower represents Jon then why is the flower filling the air with sweetness while Jon is pissing everybody off at the Wall? - if the blue flower represents a person then that person has not yet arrived at the Wall as as mentioned above winter roses only bloom in winter and this flower is in bloom. Jon joined the Watch in summer so he's been there since before the flower. - if the blue flower represents a person it represents a woman as the Bael the Bard story is about leaving a winter rose as payment for a Stark daughter. The only person who fits that so far is Alys Karstark
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I would be interested in helping out with analysis a little bit. There are for sure contrasts between the two settings in the two chapters even besides the obvious differences of location etc.
Just pick something in the chapter and share your opinion.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Post by regular jon umber on Aug 6, 2015 6:50:14 GMT
It all makes me wonder if these visions aren't manipulations somehow; they're being shown to someone to make them do something - think of Bran: all of his visions had the effect of getting him to go up North, and they were sent to him by someone who had that effect as his whole agenda. Are Dany's visions representative of someone's agenda?
It all makes me wonder if these visions aren't manipulations somehow; they're being shown to someone to make them do something - think of Bran: all of his visions had the effect of getting him to go up North, and they were sent to him by someone who had that effect as his whole agenda. Are Dany's visions representative of someone's agenda?
you have a solid point re: Bran. The 3EC was working on him long before his journey before Ned even died. I don't trust BR or cotf, but voice seems to share a different opinion on that matter. A lot of events seem to occur *just right* so Bran would go north. BR may have been manipulating Jojen, too.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It all makes me wonder if these visions aren't manipulations somehow; they're being shown to someone to make them do something
Well at least it should be noted that the Undying were trying to disorient/weaken Dany by showing her the visions so that they could kill her
“I don’t...” Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? “I don’t understand,” she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? “Help me. Show me.” ...help her... the whispers mocked.... show her...
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive.
Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them... But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany’s gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting...
So there's the immediate sense that they're showing her these visions to kill her.
Beyond that though I think there's definitely reasons why specific visions were shown to her, and given all the errors in them I'd have to say that they're sent visions and not true visions. You mentioned the Bran visions. I'm not sure if you've been watching Preston Jacobs latest series, but he pointed out that Bran never actually has a prophetic dream and neither does Jojen. They're dreams are all just current information, and the one "prophetic" dream Jojen seemingly actually has about Winterfell still contains errors so isn't actually prophetic. And that characters like Theon and Ramsay have been getting dreams that are instructions for them to do stuff. I don't agree with everything in this series so far, but the sent vision idea seems to make a lot of sense of things. So if Bran can be sent visions, I don't see why Dany can't as well.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I think the visions are true, but I have no idea what the naked woman being ravaged by little creatures part means.
In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.
The little creatures are like the servitor:
When they reached the door-a tall oval mouth, set in a wall fashioned in the likeness of a human face-the smallest dwarf Dany had ever seen was waiting on the threshold. He stood no higher than her knee, his faced pinched and pointed, snoutish, but he was dressed in delicate livery of purple and blue, and his tiny pink hands held a silver tray. Upon it rested a slender crystal glass filled with a thick blue liquid: shade of the evening, the wine of warlocks.
The servitor plays the exact same role as the CoF in Bran's parallel experience: he hands over the stuff that enables the visions/dreams:
“The trees will teach him,” said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers paddedforward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. “You must eat of this,” said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.
The servitor and the CoF have one other thing in common: their small height.
To understand the vision we need to understand that servitor. In the most common interpretation of the vision the naked woman is to be understood as Westeros so maybe the four creatures (servitors) are a metaphor too? Do they stand for Children of the Forest?
Or maybe four different kinds of vision enablers: fire, ice, water (servitors with shade of the evening), earth (CoF with weirwood paste) fighting over Westeros?
I also tried to identify the two places mentioned that get savaged by the servitors: thigh and breasts. A study of the map could mean the God's eye as one breast and Starfall as between her legs.
But all of this doesn't really work that well, I think. The woman stands for something else than Westeros, but what?
you have a solid point re: Bran. The 3EC was working on him long before his journey before Ned even died. I don't trust BR or cotf, but voice seems to share a different opinion on that matter.
Indeed I do. Like Tyrion as Hand, people were ever mistrusting of Hand Bloodraven. And for no reason. He looks suspect, if you judge people that way. And sitting in that cave hardly improves his image, but he ever only did what was best for the realm. Mostly, anyway.
People suspect the cave dwellers for no good reason, in my opinion. They might be off-the-grid survivalists, but that doesn't mean they chop people up for porridge. So far, they look like a bunch of glassy-eyed nerds in an internet cafe. Or, perhaps more accurately, a bunch of glassy eyed curators at a historical archive.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."