Anyone want to do a detailed reread with me? This is one of my favorite chapters; I just read through it four times in a row and find something new every time.
Anyone want to do a detailed reread with me? This is one of my favorite chapters; I just read through it four times in a row and find something new every time.
I just read this chapter and was about to post the same question. It's confusing as hell. I'll begin analyzing it with you if you like, others can join in.
If I don't see anything from you tomorrow when I'm online, I'll start pulling stuff from the beginning, the way Voice and Weasel did with Chapter I. I also want to go over the harvest feast, but I want to look at this one first.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I don't have my Clash of Kings at the moment by I'd love to see what you all find. It's one of the most important chapters, in my opinion.
I need to go to bed, but if you're around tomorrow, I'll try to start. I took notes this time because I was ready for the chapter this time around
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I forget which poster first pointed this out but look at the first set of visions
- A beautiful, naked woman being ravished by four little men who resemble the dwarf servitor. - A feast of slaughtered corpses holding cups, spoons, and food, with a dead man with a wolf's head sitting on a throne wearing an iron crown, apparently foreshadowing the Red Wedding. - Daenerys' childhood home with the red door in Braavos. - A throne room with dragon skulls on the walls where a king resembling Aerys II Targaryen sits on a barbed throne and appears to give the order to burn the Red Keep during the Sack of King's Landing. - A room where a silver-haired man (presumably Rhaegar Targaryen) names his son Aegon, says the child is "the prince that was promised", then plays a harp. - A "splendor of wizards" who falsely claim to be the Undying of Qarth and offer to teach Daenerys the secret speech of dragonkind.
Visions 2-5 are in reverse chronological order (i.e Red Wedding, red door, Sack, Aegon's birth). So that leaves visions 1 and 6. If the other 4 are going backwards in time, then it stands to reason that the other two are as well. Which places the women being ravaged by 4 men ahead of the Red Wedding and presumably having not yet occurred as I definitely don't subscribe to the theory that the women represents the War of 5 Kings (there's 4 men, I don't care if Stannis has killed Renly by this point 5 kings tore Westoros apart not 4). And which places the wizards before Aegon's birth.
So chronologically under this theory the events are
1. wizards 2. Aegon's birth 3. Sack 4. red door 5. Red Wedding 6. Women being ravaged by 4 little rat men
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
When this analysis is finished, I want to compare the HotU chapter to Bran's weirwood cave chapter.
Nice. She certainly seems to witness some historical events, like Bran. But wow, Dany's visions are a lot more confusing. I'm certainly down for the reread though. I've obsessed over Game long enough I guess.
I think another parallel could be, eventually, Jon's journey into Winterfell's crypts.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Totally agree on Jon/crypts...in fact, I posted a comparision between the two over at Sable Hall, I think in a thread by Dance? LOTS of shared imagery between the two.
Mark ninja'd me about the sack of KL, I was going to bring it up because on W I think I saw it suggested that it wasn't Aerys, was someone else. In regards to the weirwood chapter, both taste bitter when they start, and then the taste improves re: blue stuff and weirwood paste. Also sees a door like the door leading to the house of black and white, which I didn't notice before.
Why was Danny in there in the first place? Did she think she was going to get ships for it?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I forget which poster first pointed this out but look at the first set of visions
. Which places the women being ravaged by 4 men ahead of the Red Wedding and presumably having not yet occurred as I definitely don't subscribe to the theory that the women represents the War of 5 Kings (there's 4 men, I don't care if Stannis has killed Renly by this point 5 kings tore Westoros apart not 4). And which places the wizards before Aegon's birth.
I was trying to count the kings this time as well, came up short. Question: why do you suppose these visions are true, but perhaps the others aren't? Like the one with Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips? She also sees Rhaego, but we know he didn't live.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
why do you suppose these visions are true, but perhaps the others aren't? Like the one with Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips? She also sees Rhaego, but we know he didn't live.
Well the others are also while the Undying are trying to distract Dany so they can kill her. So the easiest thing to do is probably to invent some things. And the Undying do say this
“I have come for the gift of truth,” Dany said. “In the long hall, the things I saw... were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?” ...the shape of shadows... morrows not yet made... drink from the cup of ice... drink from the cup of fire...
Dany's asking about the earlier visions, but the Undying do answer that there are visions of morrows not yet made. And they never answer whether they can make visions of lies, truths, or past things. They just talk about the future
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
My theory is possibly Dany and her non-dragon lovers.
She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men.
The dragon does not mate with the beasts of the field and Targaryens do not mingle their blood with lesser men. What is Dany's vision?
In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.
A beautiful woman being ravaged by 4 lesser men who look like rats. Rats are beasts of the field, and little men are lesser men as Tyrion is repeatedly called Halfman. Who has Dany been fucking so far?
Drogo Hizdahr Daario
All three are not dragons. Dany has been doing exactly what she was told not to do as a Targaryen.
Of course we're still missing one lover. Dany had Irri, but she's a girl and the vision is men so I'm not counting her. But seeing as the visions seem to be going in chronological order then the vision of the beautiful woman has not yet happened. AKA Dany still has time to take one more lover who's not a Targaryen/dragon
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
That's a good thought. I always assumed she'd only have 3 lovers because of the mounting business. The 3 she would mount- also in the vision.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Yay! I was about to just start talking to myself on the topic just because there's so much I want to go over.
When this analysis is finished, I want to compare the HotU chapter to Bran's weirwood cave chapter.
Oh, yes. The Singers in the roots of the trees remind me of the Undying.
And even to the House of Black and White (in the cave of skulls, all is black and white with no colors).
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.