Throw in her visions of the stars, and the Dosh Khaleen, and the Mother of Mountains--the dragons should tie her to the Targs (bride of fire). But they seem to be tying her to the Dothraki. And the Dothraki beliefs.
Agreed! In fact, Khal Drogo is quite synonymous with Fire:
AGOT Dany V:
"My brother Rhaegar was a fierce warrior, my sun1-and-stars," she told him. "He died before I was born. Ser Jorah says that he was the last of the dragons."
Khal Drogo looked down at her. His face was a copper mask2, yet under the long black mustache, drooping beneath the weight of its gold rings, she thought she glimpsed the shadow of a smile. "Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life3," he said.
Sun=Fire
Copper Mask=Sun Face
Dany is Drogo's "Moon Wife"
And, to whom is the Moon Maiden wed?
AGOT Dany III:
The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."
It is known.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Throw in her visions of the stars, and the Dosh Khaleen, and the Mother of Mountains--the dragons should tie her to the Targs (bride of fire). But they seem to be tying her to the Dothraki. And the Dothraki beliefs.
Agreed! In fact, Khal Drogo is quite synonymous with Fire:
AGOT Dany V:
"My brother Rhaegar was a fierce warrior, my sun1-and-stars," she told him. "He died before I was born. Ser Jorah says that he was the last of the dragons."
Khal Drogo looked down at her. His face was a copper mask2, yet under the long black mustache, drooping beneath the weight of its gold rings, she thought she glimpsed the shadow of a smile. "Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life3," he said.
Sun=Fire
Copper Mask=Sun Face
Dany is Drogo's "Moon Wife"
And, to whom is the Moon Maiden wed?
AGOT Dany III:
The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."
It is known.
Yes--I'm not yet willing to go all the way with a lot of LmL's theories, but the idea that traces of lot myths and power in the stories matter--that I buy.
Dany has no "myths" of her own. Even the gods of the Valyrians got turned into dragon names--no traces of those myths left. In the visions in this chapter, she's getting drawn into older power/symbols. Not Targ symbols/myths. Makes me think, once again, that the fabulous magical Targs ain't all that spectacular.
Reminds me of the Daynes again (go ahead and gloat) and the way they predate the Targs. Older stories. Older potential myths that the Valyrians have forgotten. That Dany clearly never knew. And is oddly getting at via the Dothraki. Maybe--like she only got the power to do her dragon-getting-sacrifice via Drogo.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes--I'm not yet willing to go all the way with a lot of LmL's theories, but the idea that traces of lot myths and power in the stories matter--that I buy.
Neither am I. But to be fair, I gave this interp to LmL... rather than the other way around. Here, Dany demonstrates she is both Fire (as a Targ) and Ice (as the Moon-Wife of Sun). LmL wants the moon to be destroyed, I've been telling him it is part of the dual-nature of the moon that she is destroyed and returns every month. Dany is the Changing Woman.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Yes--I'm not yet willing to go all the way with a lot of LmL's theories, but the idea that traces of lot myths and power in the stories matter--that I buy.
Neither am I. But to be fair, I gave this interp to LmL... rather than the other way around. Here, Dany demonstrates she is both Fire (as a Targ) and Ice (as the Moon-Wife of Sun). LmL wants the moon to be destroyed, I've been telling him it is part of the dual-nature of the moon that she is destroyed and returns every month. Dany is the Changing Woman.
Not sure I'm ready to buy the changing woman yet, either.
But Dany, like Jon and the rest of the Stark kids, is learning about the past and connections to it in new ways. One big difference: Dany's not connecting to the magic of Targs--or only getting at it via a Dothraki sacrifice for dragons.
Seems to undermine the idea of the Targs being extra super special. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Neither am I. But to be fair, I gave this interp to LmL... rather than the other way around. Here, Dany demonstrates she is both Fire (as a Targ) and Ice (as the Moon-Wife of Sun). LmL wants the moon to be destroyed, I've been telling him it is part of the dual-nature of the moon that she is destroyed and returns every month. Dany is the Changing Woman.
Not sure I'm ready to buy the changing woman yet, either.
But Dany, like Jon and the rest of the Stark kids, is learning about the past and connections to it in new ways. One big difference: Dany's not connecting to the magic of Targs--or only getting at it via a Dothraki sacrifice for dragons.
Seems to undermine the idea of the Targs being extra super special. . .
I should probably explain that Changing Woman is merely an anthropomorphized version of the Moon. Dany is but a young girl. But yesterday she was dead, and tomorrow she will be old. She's ever-changing. (New moon, last quarter, first quarter...)
But yes, I totally agree that she is doing it all alone (like the Moon) rather than as a wolf among a pack of wolves, or a horse among a herd, or a sun among stars.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Not sure I'm ready to buy the changing woman yet, either.
But Dany, like Jon and the rest of the Stark kids, is learning about the past and connections to it in new ways. One big difference: Dany's not connecting to the magic of Targs--or only getting at it via a Dothraki sacrifice for dragons.
Seems to undermine the idea of the Targs being extra super special. . .
I should probably explain that Changing Woman is merely an anthropomorphized version of the Moon. Dany is but a young girl. But yesterday she was dead, and tomorrow she will be old. She's ever-changing. (New moon, last quarter, first quarter...)
But yes, I totally agree that she is doing it all alone (like the Moon) rather than as a wolf among a pack of wolves, or a horse among a herd, or a sun among stars.
So Dany does have a pack, or rather a herd, if she choses to hook into the Dothraki?
So Dany does have a pack, or rather a herd, if she choses to hook into the Dothraki?
The Dothraki hooked her. Drogo chose her. She was his silver. The pride that rode ever ahead of the khalasar. So I think that rather than pick and choose, Dany is ever the silver wife. I was drawing contrast between those with herds, like Drogo in the nightlands, and those who are ever alone, like the Moon and Dany.
"All this I know." She took his hands in hers and looked up into his dark suspicious eyes. Sometimes he thinks of me as a child he must protect, and sometimes as a woman he would like to bed, but does he ever truly see me as his queen? "I am not the frightened girl you met in Pentos. I have counted only fifteen name days, true . . . but I am as old as the crones in the dosh khaleen and as young as my dragons, Jorah. I have borne a child, burned a khal, and crossed the red waste and the Dothraki sea. Mine is the blood of the dragon."
The moon is a familiar face to everyone, as familiar as our own mothers'. Yet, is unknowable. The moon is the eldest among the dosh khaleen, yet has only just hatched from darkness, and is truly a beautiful young khaleesi. Young maiden and old crone, surrounded by herds of blue eyed horses in the starry khalasar. Yet, like moon, wife of sun, is alone.
She has three fearsome children, or at least one really big one. She will soon be seen as the stallionness that mounts the world, I believe, and unite the Dothraki into a single, great khalasar.
Dany V, AGOT:
Khal Drogo laid his hand on Dany's arm. She could feel the tension in his fingers. Even a khal as mighty as Drogo could know fear when the dosh khaleen peered into smoke of the future. At her back, her handmaids fluttered anxiously. Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. "I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves," she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice. "The thunder of his hooves!" the others chorused. "As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name." The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world." "The stallion who mounts the world!" the onlookers cried in echo, until the night rang to the sound of their voices. The one-eyed crone peered at Dany. "What shall he be called, the stallion who mounts the world?" She stood to answer. "He shall be called Rhaego," she said, using the words that Jhiqui had taught her. Her hands touched the swell beneath her breasts protectively as a roar went up from the Dothraki. "Rhaego," they screamed. "Rhaego, Rhaego, Rhaego!" The name was still ringing in her ears as Khal Drogo led her from the pit. His bloodriders fell in behind them. A procession followed them out onto the godsway, the broad grassy road that ran through the heart of Vaes Dothrak, from the horse gate to the Mother of Mountains. The crones of the dosh khaleen came first, with their eunuchs and slaves. Some supported themselves with tall carved staffs as they struggled along on ancient, shaking legs, while others walked as proud as any horselord. Each of the old women had been a khaleesi once. When their lord husbands died and a new khal took his place at the front of his riders, with a new khaleesi mounted beside him, they were sent here, to reign over the vast Dothraki nation. Even the mightiest of khals bowed to the wisdom and authority of the dosh khaleen. Still, it gave Dany the shivers to think that one day she might be sent to join them, whether she willed it or no.
"The King in the North!" Haha. Seriously though, keep "shivers" in mind and check out Drogo's fear. Drogo was tough, and feared no man. But he fears the Dosh Khaleen.
Khal Drogo fears the crones, who in turn, fear the fickle young teenager.
The fickle young girl fears herself, and fear itself. Or, she fears nothing. And why should she fear? She is moon, wife of her sun and stars. What is time to a moon?
I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old.
Alone, born with the dead, and giving birth to the dead. Alone, sister of a dying prince and a begging king. Alone, mother of three. Alone, the khaleesi of the khaleen.
Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.
Still, it gave Dany the shivers to think that one day she might be sent to join them, whether she willed it or no. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from the great Womb of the World and knelt shivering before the Mother of Dragons, their silver heads bowed. In this place, the crones of the dosh khaleen had decreed, all Dothraki were one blood, one khalasar, one herd.
She will have her herd, but will ever be alone. Ahead of it. Above it. Moon, wife of sun.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
should probably explain that Changing Woman is merely an anthropomorphized version of the Moon. Dany is but a young girl. But yesterday she was dead, and tomorrow she will be old. She's ever-changing. (New moon, last quarter, first quarter...).
Agree on the changeableness of Dany being encompassed in one self. Am also seeing this connected to Sansa (Moon door, Gates of Moon, how she talks about old self and new self) and Arya (very changeable and the moon-face in the front doors)--but that's probably not for here.
But yes, I totally agree that she is doing it all alone (like the Moon) rather than as a wolf among a pack of wolves, or a horse among a herd, or a sun among stars.
The Dothraki hooked her. Drogo chose her. She was his silver. The pride that rode ever ahead of the khalasar. So I think that rather than pick and choose, Dany is ever the silver wife. I was drawing contrast between those with herds, like Drogo in the nightlands, and those who are ever alone, like the Moon and Dany.
Yes--Dany stays separate vs. the pack connective-ness seen with the Starks.
And, to get back to the visions--she DOES see the past Targs with Rhaegar, Aerys, and the death of Viserys. But the images that she returns to in later books seem to be from the Dothraki-based images. And that's how she gets her dragons--which also set her apart.
That separateness is how she ironically got her dragons. She was willing to try to save Drogo despite the khalassar's objections. Willing to sacrifice anyone in the vicinity, even after Mirri told her "not you and not horse." And then, when most leave, she again makes the isolating decision to sacrifice for the dragons. Which set her apart further. The singular dragon with three heads--not a pack, not a collective. But the leader--and alone.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Neither am I. But to be fair, I gave this interp to LmL... rather than the other way around. Here, Dany demonstrates she is both Fire (as a Targ) and Ice (as the Moon-Wife of Sun). LmL wants the moon to be destroyed, I've been telling him it is part of the dual-nature of the moon that she is destroyed and returns every month. Dany is the Changing Woman.
I should probably explain that Changing Woman is merely an anthropomorphized version of the Moon. Dany is but a young girl. But yesterday she was dead, and tomorrow she will be old. She's ever-changing. (New moon, last quarter, first quarter...)
But yes, I totally agree that she is doing it all alone (like the Moon) rather than as a wolf among a pack of wolves, or a horse among a herd, or a sun among stars.
Wait! Wait! I think I finally get where you have been going with this!
The Moon doesn't have a dual-nature--it has a triple-nature: wax, full, wane.
The dragon must have 3 heads, three mounts/sorrows/treasons--etc., etc., etc.
Thread makes the argument that the god Trios in Braavos (ETA: and in Tyrosh--Dany speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accent) is indicative of a god with three aspects. Asserts that this could be Jon--hero with three aspects. Seems to argue that Jon is the dragon with three heads.
But the dragon must have three heads is a line given to and thought over/returned to repeatedly by Dany. By Targaryens. And she's the one who gets all the "3" prophecies. Gets the visions of past Targs, of herself as young, then as connected to the Dosh Khaleen (old and wise) then the stars. Visions are NOT just about Targs--but about further pasts, and potential futures. ETA: And again--Dany speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accent. All the threes go with her.
To co-opt a quote from the above thread:
[Sailor's Wife to Arya] "Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do."
First head devours (waning). Third head reborn (waxing). So the middle would be the full--maybe.
Dany is the three in one. Dany--not Jon. Where do we see trio imagery with Jon? At most, I can see "man wolf man." But that's nothing compared to the barrage of threes we get in this chapter. And she's the moon--as you say. And a goddess--like Trios. Like the Targs think they are gods who can't breed with the beasts of the field.
That's why Dany's singular vs. pack. Leader vs. collective. Always changing--you're right: she's the Changing Woman Moon-Goddess. The Dragon with 3 heads. The Targs got that prophecy wrong all along. Not 3 Targs together. One Dragon--with three heads--leading, conquering, mounting the world. Not saving it.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I would only add that re: three heads, one consumes/is consumed, one is born/gives birth, and between them is simply the ever-changing self. It's still a duality, in my mind.
Regarding how this fits with the three-headed trios, to either side of the self (the middle head) is the past (death) and future (life). If we look at the names of her dragons, one is named for her past, one the present, and one the future.
Viserys was her past. Her childhood and adolescence. Her fear. Her intended. He represents the family into which she was born. "If I look back, I am lost."
Drogon is her present. Her consort. Her sun and stars. Her adulthood. Her fertility. The seed of her new family.
Rhaego was to be her future, and the future she hoped to nurture. Her maternity. Her motherhood. Her return home.
All three died. All three. Yet, she hatched them anew. The funeral pyre was her womb, and they were born from it.
We should ask ourselves, when are we the fullest? When do we stop growing up and start growing old? Can that moment be identified?
I would say not. In this way, the duality, while experienced, is actually an illusion. Each facet is but one part of an endless cycle. One end appears as birth and youth (waxing), the other appears as age and death (waning). But the spectrum is not linear. Instead, like the phases of the Moon, these are only temporary images cast from a natural cycle with no beginning and no end.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
SlyWren and voice, very beautiful and lyrical explanation of Dany. You've almost got me liking her again. I'm too tired to look, but do you think the dream trios are also past, present, future? I don't recall if the usual theories divide them temporally.
I'm too tired to look, but do you think the dream trios are also past, present, future? I don't recall if the usual theories divide them temporally.
Ironically, this was one thing I wanted to examine when I started this thread with full intention of participating in it.
I think it's very possible that this is the case - or we see a combined representation of "things that are, things that were, and some thing that have not yet come to pass." However, George has been very crafty and deliberate with his construction and it's not entirely clear....one vision may seem obvious and self-explanatory as to its position in time, but then you take a closer look and realize it's not as clear-cut.
Anyway, I still want to come back to this because it's such a great chapter and you guys are throwing out a lot of solid ideas that hadn't even crossed my mind.
SlyWren and voice, very beautiful and lyrical explanation of Dany. You've almost got me liking her again. I'm too tired to look, but do you think the dream trios are also past, present, future? I don't recall if the usual theories divide them temporally.
HA! Dany still irks me, especially in later chapters. I think I get what Martin is doing with her development, but still--ergh!
As for the trios have a clear past, present, future--I cannot see how to make that out. I know people have tried, but those trios are NOT clear. I just thought that we're getting the emphasis of 3's.
Truth will out. Seems like "Who knew Dragon Queens could be boring?" memes are in the offing. Perhaps with a picture of Dany at the Mereen complaint desk/throne room.
I would only add that re: three heads, one consumes/is consumed, one is born/gives birth, and between them is simply the ever-changing self. It's still a duality, in my mind.
Agreed--but the trios are emphasized over and over with Dany. Think Martin has threesome on the brain with Dany.
Regarding how this fits with the three-headed trios, to either side of the self (the middle head) is the past (death) and future (life). If we look at the names of her dragons, one is named for her past, one the present, and one the future.
Viserys was her past. Her childhood and adolescence. Her fear. Her intended. He represents the family into which she was born. "If I look back, I am lost."
Drogon is her present. Her consort. Her sun and stars. Her adulthood. Her fertility. The seed of her new family.
Rhaego was to be her future, and the future she hoped to nurture. Her maternity. Her motherhood. Her return home.
All three died. All three. Yet, she hatched them anew. The funeral pyre was her womb, and they were born from it.
Agreed--and yet she's the mother of things that destroy. Beings born from the destruction of others, not just named for the dead.
Though in the chapter, the ways that Dany got her dragons vs. what she names them--don't think Dany yet understand. She's learning that she's three in one (in the non-Nicean sense).
What struck me about the Trios mention and the changing woman--Dany's been on an upward arc, to some extent. She's coming to her full--not ruling in Mereen, but dragon-rider. Drogon-rider. Now back to the beginning with the khalassar. But now she has a lot more power.
It's a duality/trio ever-changing. But it's also an arc. So--does she become the destroyer of self, too? In this chapter, she escapes those who would feed on her. Those who have cheated death via vampirism. But Dany's a conqueror. Conqueror's consume. Like the god Trios--I think Dany's moving towards consumption and destruction--three, three, three.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.