I'm too tired to look, but do you think the dream trios are also past, present, future? I don't recall if the usual theories divide them temporally.
Ironically, this was one thing I wanted to examine when I started this thread with full intention of participating in it.
I think it's very possible that this is the case - or we see a combined representation of "things that are, things that were, and some thing that have not yet come to pass." However, George has been very crafty and deliberate with his construction and it's not entirely clear....one vision may seem obvious and self-explanatory as to its position in time, but then you take a closer look and realize it's not as clear-cut.
Anyway, I still want to come back to this because it's such a great chapter and you guys are throwing out a lot of solid ideas that hadn't even crossed my mind.
Agreed. Question is--will these prophecies/predictions ever be clear enough to discern?
Dany focuses on "the dragon must have three heads" thing. A few times in the novels. Less so on the threes, I think--but could easily be misremembering (I've got Sword of the Morning on the brain).
It is interesting that we haven't seen her obsess like Cersei. Granted, Cersei's been given impetus with Joff's death. But still--maybe it's because Dany saw the visions herself, vs. blood-eating-frog-lady telling her things.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
What struck me about the Trios mention and the changing woman--Dany's been on an upward arc, to some extent. She's coming to her full--not ruling in Mereen, but dragon-rider. Drogon-rider. Now back to the beginning with the khalassar. But now she has a lot more power.
Way more power. I think we've finally found out what can make the Dothraki stop fearing the poisoned water: their Silver Moon Wife of Sun.
It's a duality/trio ever-changing. But it's also an arc. So--does she become the destroyer of self, too? In this chapter, she escapes those who would feed on her. Those who have cheated death via vampirism. But Dany's a conqueror. Conqueror's consume. Like the god Trios--I think Dany's moving towards consumption and destruction--three, three, three.
Like the Moon, I would say she's destined to go dark. We've already seen her eclipse the Sun (Drogo's Pyre). I completely agree she will consume and become consumed. I wouldn't be surprised if, by the end of all of this, she has become a dragon made of stone (greyscale).
Dany focuses on "the dragon must have three heads" thing. A few times in the novels. Less so on the threes, I think--but could easily be misremembering (I've got Sword of the Morning on the brain).
She focuses on tptwp, and the three heads in that regard, I believe. If she looks back, she becomes lost, so reflection is a bad practice for her. Instead, she plunges ever forward, carrying the tide.
It is interesting that we haven't seen her obsess like Cersei. Granted, Cersei's been given impetus with Joff's death. But still--maybe it's because Dany saw the visions herself, vs. blood-eating-frog-lady telling her things.
Good point. We did see her obsessing quite a bit pre-hatching. She was almost entranced by her eggs, stirring beneath the sunrise...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Like the Moon, I would say she's destined to go dark. We've already seen her eclipse the Sun (Drogo's Pyre). I completely agree she will consume and become consumed. I wouldn't be surprised if, by the end of all of this, she has become a dragon made of stone (greyscale).
Agreed, but I think Brienne will kill Drogon. . . The greyscale would be a fitting touch. Horribly tragic--she's faced with either returning to her family's real home (Valyria) with the stone-men, or suicide.
Like the Moon, I would say she's destined to go dark. We've already seen her eclipse the Sun (Drogo's Pyre). I completely agree she will consume and become consumed. I wouldn't be surprised if, by the end of all of this, she has become a dragon made of stone (greyscale).
Yes--I have trouble more and more with the idea that she's a savior. The Targs aren't savior. They are conquerors. And she's conquering at moment when conquering is only bringing darkness. Going dark.
She focuses on tptwp, and the three heads in that regard, I believe. If she looks back, she becomes lost, so reflection is a bad practice for her. Instead, she plunges ever forward, carrying the tide.
Yes--that statement seems telling The Stark journey is about looking back. They live on their ancestors' bones. Their blood is in the Wall. Jon's whole journey has been re-seeing the past. But Dany in the HotU--her "past" visions of Targs do NOT go back far. They don't tell her of the dangers of dragon-magic. The Northerners have stories like the Night's King--"don't mess with blood magic." The Targs don't, even with the Doom of Valyria they don't look back.
Dany's visions do go back to the Dothraki, but without looking back on the Targs, I really think she's doomed (bad pun).
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes--that statement seems telling The Stark journey is about looking back. They live on their ancestors' bones. Their blood is in the Wall. Jon's whole journey has been re-seeing the past. But Dany in the HotU--her "past" visions of Targs do NOT go back far. They don't tell her of the dangers of dragon-magic. The Northerners have stories like the Night's King--"don't mess with blood magic." The Targs don't, even with the Doom of Valyria they don't look back.
Dany's visions do go back to the Dothraki, but without looking back on the Targs, I really think she's doomed (bad pun).
Agreed. Starks are the North, and cold preserves = it practices cultural preservation, archival and reverence for the past. Valyria has no future, and a past forged from the blood of slaves. It is temporal, rather than taking a long-view of things. It is fire. It consumes, then ends.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Agreed. Starks are the North, and cold preserves = it practices cultural preservation, archival and reverence for the past. Valyria has no future, and a past forged from the blood of slaves. It is temporal, rather than taking a long-view of things. It is fire. It consumes, then ends.
The odd thing is that Dany keeps being given a memory of what will make her happy vs. the consuming fire--the red door and Willem Darry. Her "true" father. So, not only the mystical difference here between ice and fire, but the temporal one. The Starks had Ned for MUCH longer than Dany had Darry. For all the tension in Jon's life because of his "parentage," he really drew a better hand of cards than Dany.
If she looks back, she only sees loss. No wonder she looks forward. Her only family member with her in the HotU is Drogon. In Jon's underworld, he's got Ned and Robb--entirely dead. Bran--alive but connected to the living memory of the dead. And Sansa/Lady--both alive and dead. The corpse queen. Jon's very personal version of the Undying--the Starks. Who won't eat him alive.
Yes--Dany got a really rotten deal in her family. Even worse than Rhaegar did.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Good stuff SlyWren. It's hard for me to feel too bad for Dany. She's beautiful, has an army of Unsullied, is the mother of three dragons, rides one of them, and I believe she has just added the Dothraki to her deck.
In short, she's a far greater badass than even Aegon the Conqueror was. All Aegon had was his two sisters, and a ragtag army of fallen foes.
Dany makes him look like Quent. LOL
But I see your point. I would only argue that those memories are not being "given" to her, they are simply her humanity. We have many examples of humans, semi-humans, un-humans, and anti-humans in the series. I think Dany is another. Like a Stark with a touch too-much of the wolf blood, she is at once consumed by visions from her dragonblood (beginning when those eggs were given to her), yet, is human. Mostly. LOL
Seriously though, just as Bran and Jon and Robb begin to immediately display wolf-like tendencies after Gared's execution, so too does Dany immediately begin to feel enraptured by these eggs. As we know, she is only more-and-more consumed as time passes.
If she looks back, she is human.
She should be lost! She grew up being sexually assaulted by her older brother. At thirteen she was wed and bedded by a savage. She is an orphan teenager leading an army. Just imagine a homeless girl hanging out with a bunch of thugs. That's Dany. I'm over simplifying things, LOL, but seriously, she finds strength in ignoring her past. While that is completely understandable, considering how tumultuous her past has been, it also seems she feels lost when remembering that she is human. To miss the house you grew up in, as a homeless adolescent, is quite normal. To miss the father who raised you, when all your family are dead, is quite normal. But normality frightens Dany.
That, I believe, will ultimately cause her to embrace the Fire and Blood mantra of her house. But unlike Aegon the Conqueror, she is a far less competent leader, far more in touch with her dragonblood, and losing touch with her humanity with every bite of charred horse. She's the heart eater. She's the barbaric splendor. She's the woman that willingly paid for her husband/owner's life with the life of her baby.
Her path is ever paved with the blood of the innocent. If she looks back, she is among them, an innocent. Sure, the blood of the guilty is back there too. And she has plenty of guilt, or, at least, should. But again, if she looks back, she is among them. Prey.
She's woke the dragon, and realized it was she.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It's hard for me to feel too bad for Dany. She's beautiful, has an army of Unsullied, is the mother of three dragons, rides one of them, and I believe she has just added the Dothraki to her deck.
In short, she's a far greater badass than even Aegon the Conqueror was. All Aegon had was his two sisters, and a ragtag army of fallen foes.
Dany makes him look like Quent. LOL
But I see your point. I would only argue that those memories are not being "given" to her, they are simply her humanity. We have many examples of humans, semi-humans, un-humans, and anti-humans in the series. I think Dany is another. Like a Stark with a touch too-much of the wolf blood, she is at once consumed by visions from her dragonblood (beginning when those eggs were given to her), yet, is human. Mostly. LOL
Agreed--most of my sympathy for Dany stems from the beginning of Game. When she decides to do that blood sacrifice, I actually told my book, "NO!" Oddly, it didn't listen to me.
And the dragon-blood--yes, it overtakes Dany's sympathy at times. Granted, in the HotU, burning the Warlocks seems like a public service. But she's given warnings about the dragon blood--Viserys' death-by-burning, seeing Aerys and his speech-that'-makes-Marie-Antoinette-look-cuddly--she doesn't listen. And, unlike the Starks, she has no one with similar abilities to pull her back if/when she goes too far.
Seriously though, just as Bran and Jon and Robb begin to immediately display wolf-like tendencies after Gared's execution, so too does Dany immediately begin to feel enraptured by these eggs. As we know, she is only more-and-more consumed as time passes.
If she looks back, she is human.
And human is terrifying and vulnerable. Viserys has been insisting the Targs are superior. Her whole claim to Westeros is based on "MINE!" because she's a Targ--better than the Unsurper's Dogs. Bran doesn't like being reminded of his limitations, either. But at least he has people to remind him now and again. And he's tied into a big info dump of his family history. Even here in the HotU, Dany's surrounded by people who are trying to erase their humanity/mortality. They can't help her.
She should be lost! She grew up being sexually assaulted by her older brother. At thirteen she was wed and bedded by a savage. She is an orphan teenager leading an army. Just imagine a homeless girl hanging out with a bunch of thugs. That's Dany. I'm over simplifying things, LOL, but seriously, she finds strength in ignoring her past. While that is completely understandable, considering how tumultuous her past has been, it also seems she feels lost when remembering that she is human. To miss the house you grew up in, as a homeless adolescent, is quite normal. To miss the father who raised you, when all your family are dead, is quite normal. But normality frightens Dany.
That, I believe, will ultimately cause her to embrace the Fire and Blood mantra of her house. But unlike Aegon the Conqueror, she is a far less competent leader, far more in touch with her dragonblood, and losing touch with her humanity with every bite of charred horse. She's the heart eater. She's the barbaric splendor. She's the woman that willingly paid for her husband/owner's life with the life of her baby.
I agree entirely, But it makes me sad. Was just making a similar argument over on W--the evidence of Dany as conqueror and not savior has been growing since Game. The Prince that Was Promised--if it was a prophecy like Stallion that Mounts the World, it is not one for the benefit of ordinary humans.
Her path is ever paved with the blood of the innocent. If she looks back, she is among them, an innocent. Sure, the blood of the guilty is back there too. And she has plenty of guilt, or, at least, should. But again, if she looks back, she is among them. Prey.
She's woke the dragon, and realized it was she.
Nice! or, not nice--you get the point.
Reminds me of Haggon's advice not to warg prey animals. Dany's sympathy is being overrun by the dragons--truly, bride of fire.
Am again reminded of the Darry moment in her visions--if she'd just go back there, at least mentally, she might have a chance.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Agreed--most of my sympathy for Dany stems from the beginning of Game. When she decides to do that blood sacrifice, I actually told my book, "NO!" Oddly, it didn't listen to me.
:::
I do that all the time. I was yelling at Cat today. I gave her a good piece of my mind, too. Still, in spite of my heated admonitions, she abandoned her children and went to KL instead of sending Ser Rodrik or Maeter Luwin.
And the dragon-blood--yes, it overtakes Dany's sympathy at times. Granted, in the HotU, burning the Warlocks seems like a public service. But she's given warnings about the dragon blood--Viserys' death-by-burning, seeing Aerys and his speech-that'-makes-Marie-Antoinette-look-cuddly--she doesn't listen. And, unlike the Starks, she has no one with similar abilities to pull her back if/when she goes too far.
Definitely a public service, as was crowning Viserys. I do feel sorry for her in that she is alone, and chooses the most extreme thugs for company (and children). But still, she chose that abortion so she could have savagery instead.
And human is terrifying and vulnerable. Viserys has been insisting the Targs are superior. Her whole claim to Westeros is based on "MINE!" because she's a Targ--better than the Unsurper's Dogs. Bran doesn't like being reminded of his limitations, either. But at least he has people to remind him now and again. And he's tied into a big info dump of his family history. Even here in the HotU, Dany's surrounded by people who are trying to erase their humanity/mortality. They can't help her.
Yes! I think we can add a supremacist-upbringing to the list of dysfunctional household dynamics Dany grew up with. Though she abandoned the prejudice during her marriage, she still creates her plans with an air of superiority.
I agree entirely, But it makes me sad. Was just making a similar argument over on W--the evidence of Dany as conqueror and not savior has been growing since Game. The Prince that Was Promised--if it was a prophecy like Stallion that Mounts the World, it is not one for the benefit of ordinary humans.
It's definitely sad. But she's still made her own choices in the world, and few of them amount to anything beneficial for humanity.
Quent's melting eyeballs are a constant reminder. (How is that not a screen name yet! LOL)
Reminds me of Haggon's advice not to warg prey animals. Dany's sympathy is being overrun by the dragons--truly, bride of fire.
Am again reminded of the Darry moment in her visions--if she'd just go back there, at least mentally, she might have a chance.
I getcha
Nice tie in with Haggon! Yes. I agree again. She's more than the bride of fire, she's the mother of fire made flesh, and, in a way, was born the same day as her dragons. Child of fire. Child of three fires. Three fires will you light...
Inside, far within her subconscious, there is a little girl who loves Darry's hands and the smell of the lemon tree. But she keeps making choices that bring her further and further away from that human child-woman of surpassing loveliness, towards fire and blood. Ever closer to fire and blood.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Nice tie in with Haggon! Yes. I agree again. She's more than the bride of fire, she's the mother of fire made flesh, and, in a way, was born the same day as her dragons. Child of fire. Child of three fires. Three fires will you light...
Inside, far within her subconscious, there is a little girl who loves Darry's hands and the smell of the lemon tree. But she keeps making choices that bring her further and further away from that human child-woman of surpassing loveliness, towards fire and blood. Ever closer to fire and blood.
LmL--making a different point--brought up all the times Dany dreams of red doors alter in the books.
There are a few, and they are no longer about Braavos or lemons or Darry. She's at Dragonstone, or just turning into a dragon. Sometimes painfully. Sometimes triumphantly. Enjoying the heat and scent of ashes. "Home" has turned into "dragon" in her dreams.
Can see that starting in this vision sequence. After seeing the woman ravaged by servitors, Dany's next vision is of Darry, calling her Princess, calling her back to him. And she wants to go. But moves on--and gets Aerys and his "charred meat" speech.
As if that's the result of moving away from Darry. Darry isn't just her past and innocence and her "real" father--he's her human identity. If she moves past that--she embraces Aerys' worldview. And his fate.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Nice tie in with Haggon! Yes. I agree again. She's more than the bride of fire, she's the mother of fire made flesh, and, in a way, was born the same day as her dragons. Child of fire. Child of three fires. Three fires will you light...
Inside, far within her subconscious, there is a little girl who loves Darry's hands and the smell of the lemon tree. But she keeps making choices that bring her further and further away from that human child-woman of surpassing loveliness, towards fire and blood. Ever closer to fire and blood.
LmL--making a different point--brought up all the times Dany dreams of red doors alter in the books.
There are a few, and they are no longer about Braavos or lemons or Darry. She's at Dragonstone, or just turning into a dragon. Sometimes painfully. Sometimes triumphantly. Enjoying the heat and scent of ashes. "Home" has turned into "dragon" in her dreams.
Can see that starting in this vision sequence. After seeing the woman ravaged by servitors, Dany's next vision is of Darry, calling her Princess, calling her back to him. And she wants to go. But moves on--and gets Aerys and his "charred meat" speech.
As if that's the result of moving away from Darry. Darry isn't just her past and innocence and her "real" father--he's her human identity. If she moves past that--she embraces Aerys' worldview. And his fate.
True, she moves past Darry. But she moves past Aerys as well, and isn't even tempted to go to him.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
LmL--making a different point--brought up all the times Dany dreams of red doors alter in the books.
There are a few, and they are no longer about Braavos or lemons or Darry. She's at Dragonstone, or just turning into a dragon. Sometimes painfully. Sometimes triumphantly. Enjoying the heat and scent of ashes. "Home" has turned into "dragon" in her dreams.
Can see that starting in this vision sequence. After seeing the woman ravaged by servitors, Dany's next vision is of Darry, calling her Princess, calling her back to him. And she wants to go. But moves on--and gets Aerys and his "charred meat" speech.
As if that's the result of moving away from Darry. Darry isn't just her past and innocence and her "real" father--he's her human identity. If she moves past that--she embraces Aerys' worldview. And his fate.
True, she moves past Darry. But she moves past Aerys as well, and isn't even tempted to go to him.
True--she seems eager to move on. She doesn't know him, either. But it is interesting that the red door has changed later in the books from what it is here in the HotU.
Lady Barbery and LmL were discussing this over on Westeros. Lady Barbery pointed out the silver-haired people with white swords--telling Dany to run. Running from the shadow. I gave you the link over on the Game Prologue file, but just in case that wasn't annoying enough, it's post #28:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/135480-from-death-to-dawn-2-jons-nightmare-battle-and-the-king-of-winter/page-2
Seems like Dany is always running after something not about her real home, happy in her dreams when she is flying, even though not all of her dragon dreams are pleasant.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
@prettypig Apologies for being presumptuous, but since we seem to be stopped, thought maybe we could include a few specific passages as with the other Forensic files. If not--yell at me and I will delete.
So to one and all: the wordings of these passages seemed interesting. See what you think.
"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"
. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .
. . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .
"Three?" She did not understand.
. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .
"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."
. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .
But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
BeautifulBacon Apologies for being presumptuous, but since we seem to be stopped, thought maybe we could include a few specific passages as with the other Forensic files. If not--yell at me and I will delete.
As I have all but completely abandoned my own thread, AND all but completely forgotten all the lightbulb moments that caused me to start it in the first place, no offense whatsoever. Fire at will!