While it doesn't seem related to any parentage theories upon first glance, we do have a striking passage that stands out to me right away:
Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. Ser Waymar had been a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch for less than half a year, but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned.
Jon's coloring (and build) may not be Stark-specific, as it appears to be the coloring of the First Men.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Well, I can't say if it's a more general First Men coloring (yet), it is interesting still!
And mayhaps it helped me notice that the Other's sword was "alive with moonlight", so I reread the toj scene for the exact wording. I found the two fighting scenes oddly similar. Can't really put my finger on it, a kinda deja-vous feeling.
Waymar also stands because of his dress, destrier, his sword as well as his youth. Most NW are not so well attired or provisioned. He's also a green boy in command of veteran rangers.
Jon's coloring (and build) may not be Stark-specific, as it appears to be the coloring of the First Men.
yes, but... likely First Men have been described with differing looks:
wildlings..
A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII … Tormund Giantsbane produced the last one. "My son Dryn. … Jon gave the boy a close inspection. … He was a chunky boy, with short legs, thick arms, and a wide red face—a miniature version of his father, with a shock of dark brown hair.
clansmen..
A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize Before them marched the clansmen from the hills; chiefs and champions astride shaggy garrons, their hirsute fighters trotting beside them, clad in furs and boiled leather and old mail.
Mormonts..
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III Ser Jorah was not a handsome man. He had a neck and shoulders like a bull, and coarse black hair covered his arms and chest so thickly that there was none left for his head.
Coming to the Royce, I quote from my essay on the First Men:
We have an example of the confrontation between hairy men and andals in the Vale, where two very ancient houses have warred since the Dawn Age: House Shett, who ruled Gulltown and the Bronze Kings of Runestone, the Royce. Grizzly King Shett, King of the True Men, sounds like he was from hairy men stock. If the early Royce looked like ill-fated Ser Waymar 'graceful and slender as a knife ' then perhaps they are of andal origin.
As far as Jon being a Baratheon, does he fit their major trait?
A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII The Baratheon look was stamped on his face, in his jaw, his eyes, that black hair.
which was inherited from their ancestors, the Durrandons:
WIF - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest But Argilac [Durrandon] had grown older; his famous mane of black hair had gone grey, and his prowess at arms had faded.
nor really:
A Game of Thrones - Sansa I
Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks
So Sansa says he has the Stark looks, long face, brown hair'.
Maester Luwin also says that he fits the Stark looks, at least some of them!
A Game of Thrones - Bran VII "They were the Kings in the North for thousands of years," Maester Luwin said, lifting the torch high so the light shone on the stone faces. Some were hairy and bearded, shaggy men fierce as the wolves that crouched by their feet. Others were shaved clean, their features gaunt and sharp-edged as the iron longswords across their laps. "
No hint of Valyrian eyes or hair colour, no Baratheon 'black mane'. Starkcest anyone?
Last Edit: Sept 14, 2017 7:05:12 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
As was pointed out up thread, Ser Waymar has a look that I have come to associate with Jon
Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. AGOT-Prologue
Jon is also described as grey-eyed, graceful and slender. So is Arya! Now, if this is a Stark look that Waymar happens to share, then it makes sense that the others are hunting him. And it seems they are, as has been pointed out in several theories over the years. At least they seem to be looking for a certain "type" of person, whether they are searching for Jon or just for someone who shares physical qualities with Jon, I don't know. But there must be a genetic component somewhere between Jon and Waymar.
Waymar is handsome. I don't know if Jon is handsome or not, but we know that Ygritte certainly liked the way he looked! And more!
As far as all of Waymar's clothing, one would imagine that Jon dresses well, also. After all, he comes from the most powerful house in the north, and I can't imagine they would have shorted him on clothing and armor when he went to the wall. The mole-skin gloves stick out to me most of all, because Jon will later wear black moleskin gloves as well.
One thing I think is a major difference between Jon and Waymar has an overt level of arrogance that Waymar carries. I don't see that in Jon, but I wonder if his men do. To be honest with myself, Jon DOES have a certain level of arrogance, probably from being raised in the premier house in the north, but I wonder if some of Jon's men view Jon in the same light that Gared and Will view Waymar? But is this arrogance only how Waymar and Jon are raised, or is it in the breeding, in the blood, in the genes that they might have in common, even if it is centuries ago? Waymar is a bit of an ass, while I don't think Jon is an ass at all. Arrogant, maybe, but not as ass!
This passage has flared up my internal Dayne imagery, more with each reread:
Twilight deepened. The cloudless sky turned a deep purple, the color of an old bruise, then faded to black. The stars began to come out. A half-moon rose. AGOT-Prologue
Twilight is the time before the dark of night, but those things must come before the dawn can arrive. Purple is a Dayne color, eyes and sigil; stars are also a Dayne image in my head. The moon brings to mind the Arryn sigil, although that is a full moon, more than Dayne imagery, but there of course might be connections between those houses as well as connections to house Stark.
It also might just be about house Royce, as the sigil of House Royce of the Gates of the Moon is a black portcullis over a white crescent moon, on a purple field, bordered with runes on bronze. This is not the direct house that Waymar descends from, but a cadet branch, as Waymar descends from House Royce of Runestone, so maybe the symbolism means nothing. The runes seem to be am important image to all of the Royce households.
The Others came like a "white shadow in the darkness". I can't help but get a Ghost vibe from this line, and of course, I associate Ghost with Jon, so ... what does it mean, if anything?
which does bring to mind the sword Dawn, and I will add about the Other's sword, "no human metal went into the forging of that blade" and "a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around it's edges". Ghost in association with the sword of the Others, that is "alive with moonlight" that was forged from "no human metal" . It really connects Jon and Ghost to the sword Dawn to me, and hints again at a Dayne connection.
I have had Starkcest on my radar for quite some time now, but it's hard for me not to see the Dayne imagery. And this is just the beginning.
Two take away's from this chapter that really have nothing to do with Jon's parentage, or not directly, anyway.
1) "Nothing burns like the cold". So, does the cold burn more harshly than dragon fire?
2) The sword (hilt) of Waymar Royces. It is described as "Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it" and "what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning". On one of my multiple rereads this last winter, something caught my attention in a Dance chapter, when the wildlings were paying the tribute to the Watch to come through the wall. "Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt."ADWD-Jon VII. I know it's not much, but I think this is Waymar Royce's sword hilt, and I think it could be important to the story. Granted, it might just be an easter egg from GRRM but I have long suspected that Ice will need to be reforged, and they will need a hilt, and this hilt caught my attention as being useful.
I think either Ice will need to be reforged or a new sword will need to be forged from "a fallen meteorite" which is perhaps the petrified wood of a weirwood tree. What happens if dragon fire burns a weirwood tree? Either way, that sword will need a hilt, and my money is on the sword hilt that we are given a description of in the very first chapter of our story.
And I think that Jon Snow, who ever his parents are, is the man to wield this sword!
Last Edit: Sept 14, 2017 20:54:17 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Now, if this is a Stark look that Waymar happens to share, then it makes sense that the others are hunting him. And it seems they are, as has been pointed out in several theories over the years. At least they seem to be looking for a certain "type" of person, whether they are searching for Jon or just for someone who shares physical qualities with Jon, I don't know.
it has been suggested that they were after Benjen, who has a similar look ('gaunt as a mountain crag'). Waymar's death would have been a case of mistaken identity.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
it has been suggested that they were after Benjen, who has a similar look ('gaunt as a mountain crag'). Waymar's death would have been a case of mistaken identity.
Yes, I have heard this, and it makes sense, but we don't for sure know if Benjen looks like Jon or Waymar. But I do assume that Benjen shares a Stark look and it makes some sense, as Benjen was the First Ranger at this time!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Grizzly King Shett, King of the True Men, sounds like he was from hairy men stock.
After wiping off coffee from my screen, I'll just add that is seems like the men from the mountains of the moon look "a bit" different than the ruling houses of the Vale, so this could be the case at the time they lost control also. And if my understanding is correct the mixing with Andals were heavy in the Vale.
No hint of Valyrian eyes or hair colour, no Baratheon 'black mane'. Starkcest anyone?
Jon is the Uber-Stark, he is the north. So it could be the case that he only favors that part of him if one parent is a non-Stark. Still have Starkcest on the table, tough. (Oh my, what a sentence... )
Jon is also described as grey-eyed, graceful and slender. So is Arya! Now, if this is a Stark look that Waymar happens to share, then it makes sense that the others are hunting him. And it seems they are, as has been pointed out in several theories over the years. At least they seem to be looking for a certain "type" of person, whether they are searching for Jon or just for someone who shares physical qualities with Jon, I don't know. But there must be a genetic component somewhere between Jon and Waymar.
From Catelyn V, Storm:
"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."
I couldn't see that in the liniage in the World book tough, but it could still be a marriage not so far back. Or if a Corbray married a daughter to a junior-branch Royce.
And don't forget: Jon knows nothing, but Waymar knows less than nothing!
As far as all of Waymar's clothing, one would imagine that Jon dresses well, also. After all, he comes from the most powerful house in the north, and I can't imagine they would have shorted him on clothing and armor when he went to the wall. The mole-skin gloves stick out to me most of all, because Jon will later wear black moleskin gloves as well.
Could be. Don't think it was mentioned where he got his clothes, or if they had time to make him a wardrobe before he left. Benjen certainly has good quality clothes for the feast.
One thing I think is a major difference between Jon and Waymar has an overt level of arrogance that Waymar carries. I don't see that in Jon, but I wonder if his men do. To be honest with myself, Jon DOES have a certain level of arrogance, probably from being raised in the premier house in the north, but I wonder if some of Jon's men view Jon in the same light that Gared and Will view Waymar? But is this arrogance only how Waymar and Jon are raised, or is it in the breeding, in the blood, in the genes that they might have in common, even if it is centuries ago? Waymar is a bit of an ass, while I don't think Jon is an ass at all. Arrogant, maybe, but not as ass!
Jon has an unintended arrogance as Donnel Noye points out:
"They're not my brothers," Jon snapped. "They hate me because I'm better than they are." "No. They hate you because you act like you're better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he's a lordling." The armorer leaned close. "You're no lordling. Remember that. You're a Snow, not a Stark. You're a bastard and a bully." "A bully?" Jon almost choked on the word. The accusation was so unjust it took his breath away.
For Jon, daily swordpractice is the norm. And him isolating himself could easily be seen as arrogance. But it's not his nature, unlike Waymar. The different upbringing lordlings have plays a big part, but natural inclinations will shine through. Blood will out!
This passage has flared up my internal Dayne imagery, more with each reread:
Twilight deepened. The cloudless sky turned a deep purple, the color of an old bruise, then faded to black. The stars began to come out. A half-moon rose. AGOT-Prologue
Twilight is the time before the dark of night, but those things must come before the dawn can arrive. Purple is a Dayne color, eyes and sigil; stars are also a Dayne image in my head. The moon brings to mind the Arryn sigil, although that is a full moon, more than Dayne imagery, but there of course might be connections between those houses as well as connections to house Stark.
There is an almost identical here in Storm:
Jon VII The west had gone the color of a blood bruise, but the sky above was cobalt blue, deepening to purple, and the stars were coming out. Jon sat between two merlons with only a scarecrow for company and watched the Stallion gallop up the sky. Or was it the Horned Lord? He wondered where Ghost was now. He wondered about Ygritte as well, and told himself that way lay madness.
This is when they fight Styr and his men, and several times Satin is called by some version of "the boy from Oldtown" which brings to mind The White Bull. Ah, but now I'm straying off the prologue path...
And to stray a bit further and bring in The Hedge Knight, just because I read it yesterday and can't resist:
Dawn would be on him in a few hours. And with dawn comes death.
Ah, RIP Baelor Breakspear! I hope you guys forgive me for dragging Dunk into this; the above just stuck in my mind from last night.
The Others came like a "white shadow in the darkness". I can't help but get a Ghost vibe from this line, and of course, I associate Ghost with Jon, so ... what does it mean, if anything?
which does bring to mind the sword Dawn, and I will add about the Other's sword, "no human metal went into the forging of that blade" and "a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around it's edges". Ghost in association with the sword of the Others, that is "alive with moonlight" that was forged from "no human metal" . It really connects Jon and Ghost to the sword Dawn to me, and hints again at a Dayne connection.
Yup! I'll try to make more of the prolog later today. Several things struck me while reading it the other day, just haven't had time to put it together yet.
Yes, I have heard this, and it makes sense, but we don't for sure know if Benjen looks like Jon or Waymar. But I do assume that Benjen shares a Stark look and it makes some sense, as Benjen was the First Ranger at this time!
I haven't checked yet for quotes, but there is every indication that Benjen shares the Stark look.
Jon is the Uber-Stark, he is the north. So it could be the case that he only favors that part of him if one parent is a non-Stark. Still have Starkcest on the table, tough. (Oh my, what a sentence... )
The more you say Starkcest, the easier it gets! And Jon does seem to be a very Stark-like Stark. Granted, we don't get much physical description of the Daynes, so I wonder if the Daynes and Stark's don't share some physical characteristics like Waymar Royce does to the Starks, but still, Starkcest is certainly a viable option in the game of alphabet soup!
I couldn't see that in the liniage in the World book tough, but it could still be a marriage not so far back. Or if a Corbray married a daughter to a junior-branch Royce.
I think Waymar comes from a different line of Royces than Raymar, but their names are so similar, and they had to have had a common ancestor at some point. I think if there is a blood connection between Stark and Royce that shares the same physical characteristics, it goes back further than the lineage given to us in the world book. A thousand years, at least. Just a guess, of course.
Jon has an unintended arrogance as Donnel Noye points out:
I think Jon is arrogant in an untended way. But he was also just being rather an ass when it came to most everyone in the nights watch, because not only was he homesick and lonely, he felt like he was thrown out like Winterfell's trash. He needed that talk from Donal Noye in a bad way, to see himself as others were seeing him! And for Jon to know that other's had it much worse than he did. We all need that sometimes.
I haven't checked yet for quotes, but there is every indication that Benjen shares the Stark look.
Ahhh, Benjen...
His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes. AGOT-Jon I
Benjen Stark straddled the bench with long legs and took the wine cup out of Jon's hand. AGOT-Jon I
We don't get much on his physical appearance. Sharp-featured, gaunt as a mountain crag, hint of laughter in blue-grey eyes, long legs.
The blue-grey eyes are different than the grey eyes of Ned, Jon, and Arya, however, which sticks out to me. We even are told later that Brandon's eyes were similar to Ned's. But Benjen has some blue mixed in with that grey. I don't think Ned or Jon are ever described either as sharp featured or gaunt. I don't think either Jon or Ned are described as having long legs. I don't know that we are even told that Benjen has dark hair, although I assume he does, which I shouldn't do. Just like we shouldn't assume that Lyanna had grey eyes. It's not much to go on, but I don't really feel like I think that Benjen looks much like Ned or Jon. As to all of them sharing a Stark-like look ...
"Who's this one now?" Craster said before Jon could go. "He has the look of a Stark."
"My steward and squire, Jon Snow."
"A bastard, is it?" Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do." He shooed Jon off with a wave. ACOK-Jon I
Craster certainly recognized that Jon has "the look of a Stark" and that Jon Snow was a Stark bastard when he first meets him. He doesn't claim that he is Ned's son, however, but I have always thought it interesting that Craster recognized Jon right off, and I would think that the Stark that Craster is most familiar with is Benjen. They must look something alike. But Craster might have known about Jon being at the wall, and that he was Lord Stark's bastard. I think Craster has some knowledge of the world both at the wall and south of it. I also question what other things Craster might know. His comment about bedding woman and taking them to wife seems overt. We know he has married his daughters for years, and at some point, his first wives might even be his sisters (I am reaching here, because we are never told this in the text), so to me this is an incest link for Jon, either a hint about his birth mother or his eventual wife having Stark blood.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but it wasn't the Starcest part I found troubling... You see, I have a very vivid imagination, and it's very visual to boot. The "on the table"-part became a bit too much, at the same time as kinda funny. Yes, I have a black humor also!
Oh, Martin is poisioning my mind! Here I thought Martin and his fans were really really sick for Jojenpaste and Bolt-on, then turn around and have no (well, little is more accurate) problem with Starkcest. Or Targcest. Jamie and Cercei has also become tolerable to me... This is really disturbing!
And Jon does seem to be a very Stark-like Stark. Granted, we don't get much physical description of the Daynes, so I wonder if the Daynes and Stark's don't share some physical characteristics like Waymar Royce does to the Starks, but still, Starkcest is certainly a viable option in the game of alphabet soup!
True. IIRC, the stoney Dornish have retained more of the First Men than many, at least culturally. This could possibly be the case for the blood as well. I do see Dayne imagery everywhere in Jon's chapters, so it's hard to see past that. Still, I try to keep my mind open to all possibilities!
I think Waymar comes from a different line of Royces than Raymar, but their names are so similar, and they had to have had a common ancestor at some point. I think if there is a blood connection between Stark and Royce that shares the same physical characteristics, it goes back further than the lineage given to us in the world book. A thousand years, at least. Just a guess, of course.
If the connection is so far back, it should probably show up in more Royces. And I have too little in my head-cannon to say anything right now. (Too lazy to look it up at the moment) Also from head-cannon: this description shows up for others as well, so it could be nothing or little. Maybe he uses it as a forshadowing for something near the end? Creating an image. Stark and Royce could still have shared blood/history etc (House words for the two and a few others is very interesting, and the Houses seems to retain more of the old ways in some aspects) without that being the focus with Weymar. As for the name similarity, that could be from tradition and have nothing/little to do with branches.
He needed that talk from Donal Noye in a bad way, to see himself as others were seeing him! And for Jon to know that other's had it much worse than he did. We all need that sometimes.
Ah, yes. That we do! And are lucky if one is at hand when we need it, even if we think we're not.
We don't get much on his physical appearance. Sharp-featured, gaunt as a mountain crag, hint of laughter in blue-grey eyes, long legs.
The blue-grey eyes are different than the grey eyes of Ned, Jon, and Arya, however, which sticks out to me. We even are told later that Brandon's eyes were similar to Ned's. But Benjen has some blue mixed in with that grey. I don't think Ned or Jon are ever described either as sharp featured or gaunt. I don't think either Jon or Ned are described as having long legs. I don't know that we are even told that Benjen has dark hair, although I assume he does, which I shouldn't do. Just like we shouldn't assume that Lyanna had grey eyes. It's not much to go on, but I don't really feel like I think that Benjen looks much like Ned or Jon. As to all of them sharing a Stark-like look ...
Haha, here it's easy to speculate and assume! I must start with making one thing clear. Joseph Mawle, who plays Benjen, is the most Starkish in the show, and that is messing with my inner picture from the books! Benjen could be the odd one out, but to me that makes family looks too generic or similar. Him having sharp features, doesn't exclude the Stark look. It could be a sharper version of it. The blue in his eyes might not be as uncommon in the Starke either. And his gauntness could simply be because of his harder life at the Wall, while Ned & family enjoyes a more leasure life and better food at Winterfell. It's hard with so little description and suplementing info!
Craster certainly recognized that Jon has "the look of a Stark" and that Jon Snow was a Stark bastard when he first meets him. He doesn't claim that he is Ned's son, however, but I have always thought it interesting that Craster recognized Jon right off, and I would think that the Stark that Craster is most familiar with is Benjen. They must look something alike.
Craster might be most familiar with Benjen at this time, but he is an old man and could've seen many Starks over the years. Still doesn't exclude Benjen being the odd one out.
All in all, I have no idea how similar or dissimilar he might be from our other Starks!
His comment about bedding woman and taking them to wife seems overt. We know he has married his daughters for years, and at some point, his first wives might even be his sisters (I am reaching here, because we are never told this in the text), so to me this is an incest link for Jon, either a hint about his birth mother or his eventual wife having Stark blood.
Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. I do need several more reads before things stick! Craster has been far down on my list. After the second read and the question in another thread re his sacrifice of sons, I have speculated that he has Stark blood himself from the wrong side of the bed. Or maybe his father was. But that's as far as I've got!
Post by kinglittlefinger on Sept 15, 2017 18:56:49 GMT
So the Other's sword is "pale, almost translucent" and "alive with moonlight" and has a "ghost light, that played along its edges."
In Ned's dream, Dawn is "pale as milkglass, alive with light." Can't remember if it's described by Jaime at some point or not, but that seems pretty damn similar to me.
I'd also heard the theory that Craster is a spy for the Others and tells them when a Stark is ranging, possibly because of some prophecy regarding Starks that the Others have relating to their downfall. Could be Craster didn't know if Waymar was a Stark or not but passed it along to be on the safe side. Might also explain Benjen's disappearance and why he recognizes Jon as a Stark later on.
I haven't found anything to add to the x+y=z but funny how suddenly I see shout outs to the prologue when I think of season 7!
Show Sandor saying about the peasant and his kid found frozen that it was one of the better ways to go:
It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don’t have the strength to fight it. It’s easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don’t feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it’s like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like.
And then I had flashbacks of Viserion blowing blue fire:
It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold.
The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.
I really like that the Others actually have their own language and can mock and crack jokes as Will hears them. It really feels like they may be a different species rather than being turned. Which is why I was such a surprise to me to see that they apparently are just humans under a curse, turned into a weapon.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
So the Other's sword is "pale, almost translucent" and "alive with moonlight" and has a "ghost light, that played along its edges."
In Ned's dream, Dawn is "pale as milkglass, alive with light." Can't remember if it's described by Jaime at some point or not, but that seems pretty damn similar to me.
There is clearly a similarity between them or Martin wouldn't have used the adjectives or attributes to describe both in such a similar fashion:
Both pale, both having no human metal in them, and both alive with light/moonlight (an antithesis if I ever saw one!). Clearly both alien. However I would think Ned would have noticed the screeching or sound Dawn would make against his own weapon at ToJ. So I'm not sure how Dawn will fit in. Definitely though a candidate for Lightbringer.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I would think Ned would have noticed the screeching or sound Dawn would make against his own weapon at ToJ
may i suggest that the screeching is caused by the deep coldness of the Other's blade. Whereas Dawn is at Dornish temperature.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I can't believe I'm saying this, but it wasn't the Starcest part I found troubling... You see, I have a very vivid imagination, and it's very visual to boot. The "on the table"-part became a bit too much, at the same time as kinda funny. Yes, I have a black humor also!
Oh, Martin is poisioning my mind! Here I thought Martin and his fans were really really sick for Jojenpaste and Bolt-on, then turn around and have no (well, little is more accurate) problem with Starkcest. Or Targcest. Jamie and Cercei has also become tolerable to me... This is really disturbing!
I personally became numb to the incest in the story after a healthy dose of Oh My God, and then after than, I became strangely accepting! This is not our world, it's a fictional, fantasy world after all! Dragon's are being born and kraken's might lurk in the sea's, and direwolves are fighting unicorns, and so I just try to suspend all notions of our world. Including incest as a tool in this story of mythic proportions.
I must start with making one thing clear. Joseph Mawle, who plays Benjen, is the most Starkish in the show, and that is messing with my inner picture from the books!
I agree completely. Of all the actors cast as Stark's in the show, Benjen's actor is the one that I most think looks like my mental picture of a Stark.
Benjen could be the odd one out, but to me that makes family looks too generic or similar. Him having sharp features, doesn't exclude the Stark look. It could be a sharper version of it. The blue in his eyes might not be as uncommon in the Starke either.
All of this is true. The King of Misdirection is also pretty good at giving us as few solid details as he possibly can! He's crafty, that GRRM!
I'd also heard the theory that Craster is a spy for the Others and tells them when a Stark is ranging, possibly because of some prophecy regarding Starks that the Others have relating to their downfall. Could be Craster didn't know if Waymar was a Stark or not but passed it along to be on the safe side. Might also explain Benjen's disappearance and why he recognizes Jon as a Stark later on.
I have also heard this theory on Craster, and I could totally buy into it.
I really like that the Others actually have their own language and can mock and crack jokes as Will hears them. It really feels like they may be a different species rather than being turned. Which is why I was such a surprise to me to see that they apparently are just humans under a curse, turned into a weapon.
I agree that the Other's of the books seem to be almost a different species, not human, but human like, and probably more advanced than the people of Westeros. While the show scene with the obsidian glass pushed into the heart to make an Other is intriguing, I am not sure that is the story we will get from the novels. Maybe, but probably not!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.