However I would think Ned would have noticed the screeching or sound Dawn would make against his own weapon at ToJ. So I'm not sure how Dawn will fit in. Definitely though a candidate for Lightbringer.
Ned's dream ends as they rush together, and then the voices saying "Lord Eddard" meld with Lyanna's and wake him up, we don't ever actually hear his blade and Dawn's meet.
I personally became numb to the incest in the story after a healthy dose of Oh My God, and then after than, I became strangely accepting! This is not our world, it's a fictional, fantasy world after all! Dragon's are being born and kraken's might lurk in the sea's, and direwolves are fighting unicorns, and so I just try to suspend all notions of our world. Including incest as a tool in this story of mythic proportions.
I'm on the way there, haha. Just sometimes I start reeling of the things that get normalized in analyzing the text. But in-world only!
I agree completely. Of all the actors cast as Stark's in the show, Benjen's actor is the one that I most think looks like my mental picture of a Stark.
So the Other's sword is "pale, almost translucent" and "alive with moonlight" and has a "ghost light, that played along its edges."
In Ned's dream, Dawn is "pale as milkglass, alive with light." Can't remember if it's described by Jaime at some point or not, but that seems pretty damn similar to me.
There is clearly a similarity between them or Martin wouldn't have used the adjectives or attributes to describe both in such a similar fashion:
Both pale, both having no human metal in them, and both alive with light/moonlight (an antithesis if I ever saw one!). Clearly both alien. However I would think Ned would have noticed the screeching or sound Dawn would make against his own weapon at ToJ. So I'm not sure how Dawn will fit in. Definitely though a candidate for Lightbringer.
The similarities are strong enough for me to think there is some connection between them. If Dawn is an actual Other's sword I have no idea at the moment. But the opposition with light/moonlight is very interesting!
Ned's dream ends as they rush together, and then the voices saying "Lord Eddard" meld with Lyanna's and wake him up, we don't ever actually hear his blade and Dawn's meet.
So, here is my over analyzed take on the prologue! It follows the text in order, and I hold ALL possibilities open and consider all theories I can think of off the top of my head. Hold on tight...
My mother told me that dead men sing no songs.
This obviously makes me thing of Rhaegar! Also it makes me think of baby Aegon.
"My wet nurse said the same thing, Will," Royce replied. "Never believe anything you hear at a woman's tit.
Two things here: 1. Wet nurse points to Wylla of course, but also to Dany who needed a wet nurse, and (f)Aegon if he did (RLA). The last one could point to Ashara if indeed she poses as Septa Lemore. 2. The part of never believing points to not believing who you are told you are for the kids in question.
There are things to be learned even from the dead.
Hints at dead men really being alive, and they know a lot, or can provide info that will clear things up even of they don't know the whole truth them selves. JonCon is confirmed as one of these. Another contestant is Rhaegar himself (personally I think he really died ), we have Arthur and the other two KG depending on theory. You can even through in (f)Aegon if he is real. As a tie in here, we have wildlings who are thought to be dead that disappear - whight status not considered.
Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons.
The Mountain That Rides anyone? Thus leading to baby Aegon.
Sable cloak, sable cloak, sable cloak
This is mentioned so many times! It is the only sable cloak in GoT. Without going into details of all quotes here, Waymar is mocked as a "great warrior" in making it - Arthur, Robert and Rhaegar comes to mind. Over all, it seems Waymar is an counterpoint to Arthur to me. But I do have Dayne fever, Arthur in particular.
The order had been given, and honor bound them to obey.
The KG at toj - Arthur.
Gared's hood shadowed his face, but Will could see the hard glitter in his eyes as he stared at the knight. For a moment he was afraid the older man would go for his sword. It was a short, ugly thing, its grip discolored by sweat, its edge nicked from hard use, but Will would not have given an iron bob for the lordling's life if Gared pulled it from its scabbard.
Reminds me of Arthur's fight with the Smiling Knight, an opposite situation where the knight would loose.
He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.
Toj and Arthur again.
Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness.
Brings to mind Jamie's dream - again Arthur and the KG, and Rhaegar. And can't forget Ned's role in the dream!
It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow.
Dragon blood, obviously! Fire touching Snow...?
The Other's parry was almost lazy.
Arthur, Mance and Barristan.
Royce's body lay facedown in the snow <snip> sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places <snip> A boy
Identity hidden by snow? Mance with his cloak? A boy, you say?
He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning.
Dondarrion with all his Dayne imagery.
He went to the tree, a vaulting grey-green sentinel, and began to climb. Soon his hands were sticky with sap,<snip>
Not really related to the alphabet soup, but this screamed Littlefinger to me. He has grey-green eyes and are over all watchfull and notices pretty much everything (Two origins of "sentinel": from Old Italian sentinella, from sentina watchfulness, from sentire to notice, from Latin). And hates to get his hands dirty!
This obviously makes me thing of Rhaegar! Also it makes me think of baby Aegon.
I have never once thought of Rhaegar in that statement, but it makes sense. He is probably the man most associated with songs in the story. I usually think of Sansa in relation to songs, but she is neither dead nor a man. And I agree that I think Rhaegar died long before the books begin.
To me this statement has always seemed like an in-world way of saying "dead men tell no tales", which pop's up often in literature and fiction, but in this case, we will find out that the dead in our story don't actually always stay dead. So far the wights don't have much of a story to tell, but they are a bit terrifying. It also relates a bit to Ned, who is a dead man in our story who died with a secret that he was trying to keep and that secret is part of the driving force of the story. Just like Rhaegar and Lyanna's secrets!
Nice! It certainly hints at a merging of ice and fire, but is that in a child or just in the sense of Dragons meeting the Others? Or many other options for fire and ice. But snow in the story always makes me think of Jon Snow.
Last Edit: Sept 18, 2017 14:13:50 GMT by stdaga: clarification
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I would think Ned would have noticed the screeching or sound Dawn would make against his own weapon at ToJ
may i suggest that the screeching is caused by the deep coldness of the Other's blade. Whereas Dawn is at Dornish temperature.
It is an excellent possibility actually! I personally prefer it to kinglittlefinger's that we just didn't hear it because Ned woke up because if that would be the case, it's still odd that nobody would ever mention the screeching when it came to Dawn. I mean Ned's dream may be cut off however Arthur Dayne had fought with others during his lifetime and we are told of his deeds and sword yet no one ever remembers to mention this exceptional sound that no other blade makes. As far as I know Arthur Dayne's fights took place in warmer climates and this would explain the difference.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
This obviously makes me thing of Rhaegar! Also it makes me think of baby Aegon.
This also brings to mind Mance Rayder, whom is thought to be dead, but is actually quite alive and in disguise in Winterfell singing songs and trying to get into the crypts. Mance is a "dead" man with a tale to tell. I don't really think that Mance is Rhaegar (although, that theory has got some interesting elements), however, this statement connects them in a way I had never given much thought to before. Either Mance or Rhaegar could be Jon's bio-dad!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I have never once thought of Rhaegar in that statement, but it makes sense. He is probably the man most associated with songs in the story. I usually think of Sansa in relation to songs, but she is neither dead nor a man. And I agree that I think Rhaegar died long before the books begin.
I've read the prologue several times before, but this time I almost read "Rhaegar is dead and sing no songs." I have no idea why! My mind does that sometimes. He is the most famed singer in the story, and dead. Just seemed obvious somehow. Sansa is more connected with birds to me, not singing or songs in it self. Maybe because she is so often called "little bird", so I filed her under that in my head.
To me this statement has always seemed like an in-world way of saying "dead men tell no tales", which pop's up often in literature and fiction, but in this case, we will find out that the dead in our story don't actually always stay dead. So far the wights don't have much of a story to tell, but they are a bit terrifying. It also relates a bit to Ned, who is a dead man in our story who died with a secret that he was trying to keep and that secret is part of the driving force of the story. Just like Rhaegar and Lyanna's secrets!
You are probably right in the actual usage of the frase, that's the way I read it the other times. This time I let my mind just run with associations and possible double meanings and this came up. I'm not sure wights have that much to say really, not the ice wights anyway. Dondarrion had quite a bit to say, but who knows how much he would've had if he had gone on and lost more of himself. Stoneheart seems to just focus on "Hang". Mind, I've only read the Stoneheart part once and might be fuzzy. Not long until I reach it again though!
This also brings to mind Mance Rayder, whom is thought to be dead, but is actually quite alive and in disguise in Winterfell singing songs and trying to get into the crypts. Mance is a "dead" man with a tale to tell. I don't really think that Mance is Rhaegar (although, that theory has got some interesting elements), however, this statement connects them in a way I had never given much thought to before. Either Mance or Rhaegar could be Jon's bio-dad!
Haha, it does! Didn't think of that at the time. Well, as you know to me Mance doesn't make sense at all, and my favorite pet theory is Arthur = Mance. But I do realize that might not me the case, so I don't hold on to it for dear life! Rhaegar = Mance I've found less convincing based on what is known of their personalities amongst other things. I guess I could say that there are elements with/in Mance that reminds or connects metaphorically to Rhaegar and his crew. If it turns out to be a real connection we will hopefully be able to read about it in two new books!
Nice! It certainly hints at a merging of ice and fire, but is that in a child or just in the sense of Dragons meeting the Others? Or many other options for fire and ice. But snow in the story always makes me think of Jon Snow.
There are several times that non-dragon blood is said to steam, like in the trial by combat with the Viper and the Moutain (just read that, urhg, and I can't read Oberyn's final moments or see his death-scene in the show...) and other times at the wall. So I'm not sure it means anything at all, just mentioned it. It could be something in relation to ice and fire to be sure, or just George being descriptive.
It is an excellent possibility actually! I personally prefer it to kinglittlefinger's that we just didn't hear it because Ned woke up because if that would be the case, it's still odd that nobody would ever mention the screeching when it came to Dawn. I mean Ned's dream may be cut off however Arthur Dayne had fought with others during his lifetime and we are told of his deeds and sword yet no one ever remembers to mention this exceptional sound that no other blade makes. As far as I know Arthur Dayne's fights took place in warmer climates and this would explain the difference.
As you say, we never hear of any unusual sounds from Dawn from any other source. So I think it hasn't made any sound like that. I do think it's temperature related, but that it's the unusual cold that the Others bring with them (or that brings them, whichever one prefer).
Sansa is more connected with birds to me, not singing or songs in it self. Maybe because she is so often called "little bird", so I filed her under that in my head.
She certainly has much bird imagery in her story, and also bat imagery, but she loves stories, often referred to as "songs" and also by the people that sing those songs and tell those stories. That is why it is so ironic to me that she is nearly raped by Marillion in the vale, and she is living a nightmare of a story. Those singers and songs in real life are not at all like what Sansa had imagined.
You are probably right in the actual usage of the frase, that's the way I read it the other times. This time I let my mind just run with associations and possible double meanings and this came up.
I really like the angle about Rhaegar and the dead men singing no songs. I find that what is so amazing about the text is that it can have so many meanings or options of meanings and possible interpretations. That is why I think the story is just brilliant. GRRM is a genius! A slow-as-shit writer, but still genius!
Well, as you know to me Mance doesn't make sense at all, and my favorite pet theory is Arthur = Mance. But I do realize that might not me the case, so I don't hold on to it for dear life!
Mance has some Dayne imagery about him, or at least Dorne. Mance's knee's bend no more easily than Ser Arthur "our knees do not bend easily" Dayne and Mance is a hell of a swordsman. It's possible that Mance is Arthur. In Storm, Jon uses the telescope that Maester Aemon once used to look at "the stars" to look down on Mance Rayder's tent in the camp below the wall. That is a star connection to Mance as far as I am concerned. I like the theories about Mance being Arthur much more than I like the idea of Mance being Rhaegar. It sounds terrible, but I really want Rhaegar to be dead, to have had his chest crushed by Robert's war hammer on the Trident! And I hope it hurt!
As for a Dayne connection to Mance, I really wonder about Mance's elder brother, who apparently planted the seed that grew to become Edric "Ned" Dayne, but who is almost completely missing from the story. Or the possibility that Mance is a Dayne bastard? Every other family has a bastard or two hanging about, why not the Dayne's?
It could be something in relation to ice and fire to be sure, or just George being descriptive.
Sometimes I wonder if GRRM is worried or appalled at how we the readers might over analyze his text, even to the point of seeing a ton of shit that really isn't there! LOL It might even be the reason he has become even more painfully slow at writing than he was before!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
She certainly has much bird imagery in her story, and also bat imagery, but she loves stories, often referred to as "songs" and also by the people that sing those songs and tell those stories. That is why it is so ironic to me that she is nearly raped by Marillion in the vale, and she is living a nightmare of a story. Those singers and songs in real life are not at all like what Sansa had imagined.
Haha, maybe my mind started filing in sigil-form, and Sansa getting a (mocking)bird sigil there! Her living song is not so harmonic as she'd thought it would be...
I really like the angle about Rhaegar and the dead men singing no songs. I find that what is so amazing about the text is that it can have so many meanings or options of meanings and possible interpretations. That is why I think the story is just brilliant. GRRM is a genius! A slow-as-shit writer, but still genius!
I liked it too! I've seen some posts on different forums and wondered how the hell you can see that, so it's phrases and phrasing that can say so many things!
Mance has some Dayne imagery about him, or at least Dorne. Mance's knee's bend no more easily than Ser Arthur "our knees do not bend easily" Dayne and Mance is a hell of a swordsman. It's possible that Mance is Arthur. In Storm, Jon uses the telescope that Maester Aemon once used to look at "the stars" to look down on Mance Rayder's tent in the camp below the wall. That is a star connection to Mance as far as I am concerned. I like the theories about Mance being Arthur much more than I like the idea of Mance being Rhaegar.
Haha, I could go on and on about this! I will point out here that his tent is the snowy white of snowbear skins. And I totally agree with the last statement!
It sounds terrible, but I really want Rhaegar to be dead, to have had his chest crushed by Robert's war hammer on the Trident! And I hope it hurt!
LOL! You don't like him much, do you? Every time I read or hear of the battle at the Trident, I root for Rhaegar! Every. Single. Time. Maybe the text has changed since the last time I read it... I do prefer Rhaegar over Robert.
As for a Dayne connection to Mance, I really wonder about Mance's elder brother, who apparently planted the seed that grew to become Edric "Ned" Dayne, but who is almost completely missing from the story. Or the possibility that Mance is a Dayne bastard? Every other family has a bastard or two hanging about, why not the Dayne's?
Yup! Another Dayne mystery! He is only mentioned that one time, and Little Ned is the Lord of Starfall. So either he is dead or he joined the Watch or something. Frustrating!
Sometimes I wonder if GRRM is worried or appalled at how we the readers might over analyze his text, even to the point of seeing a ton of shit that really isn't there! LOL It might even be the reason he has become even more painfully slow at writing than he was before!
And it's for good reason when it comes to me! I can see everything everywhere!
LOL! You don't like him much, do you? Every time I read or hear of the battle at the Trident, I root for Rhaegar! Every. Single. Time. Maybe the text has changed since the last time I read it... I do prefer Rhaegar over Robert.
I really have no reason not to like Rhaegar. I think my feelings are a reaction to all of the "poor Rhaegar" and "Rhaegar loved Lyanna" and "the Silver Prince" nonsense. And I like a good romance story, but this isn't it. If the story plays out like my first impression (which was years ago, now), which is an elopement, with Rhaegar coaxing a young woman into being his surrogate womb so he he can full fill a fucking prophecy and then ditched his wife because of this, a wife who then died a pretty awful death, no matter what he thought the outcome would be, I find him to be an ass. Elia's death was worse than Rhaegar's and that plays in my mind. I rather hope that is not the case. I hope that there was more to Rhaegar than pretty hair and a stupid silver harp and some prophecy. I like the idea of him being duped into this behavior by someone like Tywin or Jon Arryn, but it still doesn't excuse him. I just hope to know the truth someday, not Robert's version of Rhaegar the rapist, or JonCon's Silver Prince, or Barristan the Bold bragging Rhaegar up to Dany. Robert's death was fitting, gored by a boar after years of being a miserable king, and Rhaegar got a fitting death too, I bet. I certainly want Rhaegar to be dead, not living on in an assumed identity, making his way in the world with nary a care while the fallout of two wars still plagues Westeros.
I love flawed characters. I think that is why I favor Robert to Rhaegar, because we don't hear that Rhaegar had flaws, everyone with the exception of Robert seemed to adore him. But this is GRRM where the world is a million shades of grey and everyone is flawed, and I hope that we will learn more about Rhaegar in the future to feel like he was a real person who made good choices and bad choices, and had some internal conflict that warred within him. Jaime Lannister is probably the best example of a flawed character that a person has empathy for. But I don't know that we will ever learn enough about Rhaegar for me to feel that way about him. We really know so very little, and I don't trust much of what we know.
Honestly, I just love the imagery of Robert and Rhaegar at the Trident. Sword and hammer clashing, water splashing at the ford, great war stallions circling each other, antlered helm versus dragon helm, exhaustion setting in, and finally, rubies flying into the water, and silver hair floating on the current. It's one of my favorite mental images of the books, and I am almost glad it lives in my head, and not on the show, where no doubt they would not do it justice.
Yup! Another Dayne mystery! He is only mentioned that one time, and Little Ned is the Lord of Starfall. So either he is dead or he joined the Watch or something. Frustrating!
Yes, he is one of a few characters that I think must be a purposeful omission from the story, like Lyarra Stark, if we can trust TWOIAF on her name.
Haha, I could go on and on about this! I will point out here that his tent is the snowy white of snowbear skins. And I totally agree with the last statement!
I will say this about if Mance turns out to be Ser Arthur Dayne, and I mean it in the kindest way possible, as I know you are a huge fan of SAD. I think that would make SAD one of the biggest shit's of the story, because he not only left one lifetime commitment of the Kingsguard, but then he also left a vow he made at one point to the Night's Watch. And that would make his word and worth amount to very little for me. I don't know that we could ever get enough from this story for me to understand how SAD might have felt while continuing to break lifetime vows. I am not certain that I buy the idea that the end justifies any means, and that is how I would have to see the story play out if Mance is Arthur. But then again, if the end is saving the world, then maybe any means possible is an easier pill to swallow! The ends justifying the means is the thing I struggle with Rhaegar about, too!
BTW, I really hate the idea of all of these people stuck in lifetime vows, and I feel for them. Jaime, Jon, Ser Arthur, Ser Barristan. That's a hard life!
I personally like the idea of Mance being the bastard of Lord Commander Qorgyle, because it makes sense in regards to his Dornish "our knees do not bend easily" attitude, knowledge of Westerosi culture and music, the red threads on his black cloak, and a pretty concise back story, where people have known him since he was a child.
I will point out here that his tent is the snowy white of snowbear skins. And I totally agree with the last statement!
Mance Rayder is no fool, and he knows that even as king of the free folk, he needs to have something showy that sets him apart. A snow white tent does that, a tent that also is "crowned" with elk antlers, and that has no connection to the Dayne's in anyway that I can see. It looks good for a king, however.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I really have no reason not to like Rhaegar. I think my feelings are a reaction to all of the "poor Rhaegar" and "Rhaegar loved Lyanna" and "the Silver Prince" nonsense. And I like a good romance story, but this isn't it. If the story plays out like my first impression (which was years ago, now), which is an elopement, with Rhaegar coaxing a young woman into being his surrogate womb so he he can full fill a fucking prophecy and then ditched his wife because of this, a wife who then died a pretty awful death, no matter what he thought the outcome would be, I find him to be an ass. Elia's death was worse than Rhaegar's and that plays in my mind. I rather hope that is not the case. I hope that there was more to Rhaegar than pretty hair and a stupid silver harp and some prophecy. I like the idea of him being duped into this behavior by someone like Tywin or Jon Arryn, but it still doesn't excuse him. I just hope to know the truth someday, not Robert's version of Rhaegar the rapist, or JonCon's Silver Prince, or Barristan the Bold bragging Rhaegar up to Dany. Robert's death was fitting, gored by a boar after years of being a miserable king, and Rhaegar got a fitting death too, I bet. I certainly want Rhaegar to be dead, not living on in an assumed identity, making his way in the world with nary a care while the fallout of two wars still plagues Westeros.
I love flawed characters. I think that is why I favor Robert to Rhaegar, because we don't hear that Rhaegar had flaws, everyone with the exception of Robert seemed to adore him. But this is GRRM where the world is a million shades of grey and everyone is flawed, and I hope that we will learn more about Rhaegar in the future to feel like he was a real person who made good choices and bad choices, and had some internal conflict that warred within him. Jaime Lannister is probably the best example of a flawed character that a person has empathy for. But I don't know that we will ever learn enough about Rhaegar for me to feel that way about him. We really know so very little, and I don't trust much of what we know.
Ah, I see what you mean. Rhaegar is one of those that people feel is either a fallen hero or a total sack of shit. I haven't bought into the picture of Saint Rhaegar at all, I see him as more shady than that by far. There are hints all over of this, and trying to fit the pieces together is fun! I buy neither Prince Silverstring (his on-stage persona so to speak) or the dark evil rapist the commoners, Robert and Bran talk of after RR. While I'm sceptic of the rose-tinted view from those who knew him, I also doubt he was putting on an act for years and years for everyone around him. As I was a sullied reader I never bought the story of the kidnapping, and I'm not sure he had anything to do with that at all. I highly doubt he would kidnap anyone to fulfill any prophecy, I'm sceptical of the whole prophecy driven narrative when it comes to the rebellion. I think a rebellion was coming no matter what, so if Lyanna had been safe and sound something else would've started it. I'm not saying I think he was totally innocent, as he was definitely up to something. I do think he was doing what he thought he had to do and the best choice he saw. As a grown heir apparant he had to move, it's a position that doesn't give you the choice to not play unless you give up your claim, and that was not an option for him. Aerys, Arryn and Tywin were moving, and Rahegar had to move too. Of course he must be held responsible for his actions, so until we know more of those I give him the benefit of the doubt.
Honestly, I just love the imagery of Robert and Rhaegar at the Trident. Sword and hammer clashing, water splashing at the ford, great war stallions circling each other, antlered helm versus dragon helm, exhaustion setting in, and finally, rubies flying into the water, and silver hair floating on the current. It's one of my favorite mental images of the books, and I am almost glad it lives in my head, and not on the show, where no doubt they would not do it justice.
Haha, it is captivating! I prefer the still image in the world book, for it's beauty naturally but also as I'd liked if someone staved in Robert's head or something after Rhaegar fell... It wouldn't solve anything with both dead, it's just that Robert makes me .
I will say this about if Mance turns out to be Ser Arthur Dayne, and I mean it in the kindest way possible, as I know you are a huge fan of SAD. I think that would make SAD one of the biggest shit's of the story, because he not only left one lifetime commitment of the Kingsguard, but then he also left a vow he made at one point to the Night's Watch. And that would make his word and worth amount to very little for me. I don't know that we could ever get enough from this story for me to understand how SAD might have felt while continuing to break lifetime vows. I am not certain that I buy the idea that the end justifies any means, and that is how I would have to see the story play out if Mance is Arthur. But then again, if the end is saving the world, then maybe any means possible is an easier pill to swallow! The ends justifying the means is the thing I struggle with Rhaegar about, too!
BTW, I really hate the idea of all of these people stuck in lifetime vows, and I feel for them. Jaime, Jon, Ser Arthur, Ser Barristan. That's a hard life!
I personally like the idea of Mance being the bastard of Lord Commander Qorgyle, because it makes sense in regards to his Dornish "our knees do not bend easily" attitude, knowledge of Westerosi culture and music, the red threads on his black cloak, and a pretty concise back story, where people have known him since he was a child.
Haha, no worries of offending me! I can take it! The thing is, you kinda point out why that would make total sense if my take on him and his actions are correct. I think he (and at least 5 other KG) turned their back on Aerys in favor of Rhaegar. You know my problems with staying true to those vows when it comes to him. If he did survive and go to the Wall, I'm not sure it was to take the black in the normal sense. Granted this is speculation on his office, but I think that may play a big part. But I won't go further into that here. I think he saw what Jon saw: wildlings are just men. If he had a larger mission of sorts, he'd have all the more reason to act. I agree on the lifetime vows! The road to hell is well known to be paved with good intentions. Some might be made for it, but that is few!
I might change my mind on Mance in future readings, or we might be given the answer. Sorry to cut this a bit on the short side, but I have to run to the shops!
Mance Rayder is no fool, and he knows that even as king of the free folk, he needs to have something showy that sets him apart. A snow white tent does that, a tent that also is "crowned" with elk antlers, and that has no connection to the Dayne's in anyway that I can see. It looks good for a king, however.
Well, Baratheons has antlers as part of their sigil! Not elk, but close!
It wouldn't solve anything with both dead, it's just that Robert makes me .
I think Robert's punishment for bad choices (not punishing the people responsible for the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon) was that he had to be king. He probably wanted it at first, but realized it wasn't all glory and tournaments, but counting copper's and living with Cersei. Robert might feel he did die on the Trident and then spent the next 15 years in purgatory until that boar finally rescued him from the life he chose (and Cersei)!
yes, but... likely First Men have been described with differing looks:
wildlings..
Good point.
But I think, like in the south, that First Men north of the Wall have been mingling with other populations for quite some time. We know that ships occasionally wash ashore and that they do trade with other groups. There is also the constant influx of wife-less men on their southern border, many of whom are stealers-of-women, poachers, and raiders... like the wildlings themselves.
But, when we see the Thenns, who like the Starks and Royces, enjoy a position of ancestral authority, they too seem to have the Royce-Stark look:
A few feet away, a taller, leaner man in a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales stood frowning over a map, a two-handed greatsword slung across his back in a leather sheath. He was straight as a spear, all long wiry muscle, clean-shaved, bald, with a strong straight nose and deepset grey eyes. He might even have been comely if he'd had ears, but he had lost both along the way, whether to frostbite or some enemy's knife Jon could not tell. Their lack made the man's head seem narrow and pointed.
This the first description we are given for the Magnar of Thenn. He's slender, with a long face and grey eyes.
In my head-canon, the Mormonts are descendants of ironborn reavers. I can't remember if that is based on the text or a theory.
The ironborn go back a very long time, but unlike the First Men who migrated along the Arm of Dorne, they are seafaring.
That seems to be the defining charictaristic of the first wave of the First Men. They did not travel by water. The traveled only by land, and their migrations were severed when the sea swallowed the Arm.
Like the Dothraki, they seem to have been a culture of horsemen who were fond of bronze and curved blades.
The Mormonts, if descended from ironborn pirates, would have a separate and distinct heritage. A maritime population as opposed to nomadic horsemen.
Coming to the Royce, I quote from my essay on the First Men:
We have an example of the confrontation between hairy men and andals in the Vale, where two very ancient houses have warred since the Dawn Age: House Shett, who ruled Gulltown and the Bronze Kings of Runestone, the Royce. Grizzly King Shett, King of the True Men, sounds like he was from hairy men stock. If the early Royce looked like ill-fated Ser Waymar 'graceful and slender as a knife ' then perhaps they are of andal origin.
Mayhaps. Waymar was young. In time, he might have grown a beard and some nice bushy eyebrows.
As my mind wanders through this idea, I'm reminded of the Karstarks, and the Stark Kings of old. They might be considered harry and grizzly by today's standards. But, after some grooming, they would likely look just as Royce/Stark as Jon or Waymar or Ned.
Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks
So Sansa says he has the Stark looks, long face, brown hair'.
No hint of Valyrian eyes or hair colour, no Baratheon 'black mane'. Starkcest anyone?
Big time. I think this is the inconvenient truth. Lyanna likely had a long face, brown hair, and grey eyes. We don't know that she did, but given that Arya looks like her and that Lyanna's parents were both Starks (wink, wink), it seems likely Lyanna had the Stark look.
So what combination with those traits might give us Jon, in whom they are amplified rather than subdued/replaced?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ned's dream ends as they rush together, and then the voices saying "Lord Eddard" meld with Lyanna's and wake him up, we don't ever actually hear his blade and Dawn's meet.
Five bucks says Ned's sword broke.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The ironborn go back a very long time, but unlike the First Men who migrated along the Arm of Dorne, they are seafaring.
sea-faring? hmm, as far as i could gather when i poked into their past (world book) their were just timid coast hugging sailors. And I am still convinced that - different - FM came both through the Bite and the Arm of Dorne.
This the first description we are given for the Magnar of Thenn. He's slender, with a long face and grey eyes.
I need to add the Thenns to my collection of northern FMs. But that description is very 'starkish'. Where do they get their belief that their magnar is akin to a 'god'?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."