I think Robert's punishment for bad choices (not punishing the people responsible for the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon) was that he had to be king. He probably wanted it at first, but realized it wasn't all glory and tournaments, but counting copper's and living with Cersei. Robert might feel he did die on the Trident and then spent the next 15 years in purgatory until that boar finally rescued him from the life he chose (and Cersei)!
Yes, but those Baratheon stag antlers have no connection to the Dayne's. Still, antlers like that are a majestic sight! Kingly!
A Kingsguard renounces his own House sigil, so I don't really look for Dayne imagery for him anymore. As an image there is a snowy white tent with antlers on top. With all the antlered helmets the Baratheons have, that's the first thing that comes to my mind. The species is secondary imagery wise to me, and as an image this screams Kingsguard flying the royal family's sigil to me. That being said, a giant elk's antlers would be an impressive thing indeed! (As Martin is American, I take it that he means elk in the american sense and not the european, which can be a bit confusing) Mance is not lost on that, and neither would Arthur be in my oppinion. And an elk is kingly! We agree on that!
Where do they get their belief that their magnar is akin to a 'god'?
Imo, that belief is inherent in the language and the word "magnar" itself.
I have a feeling the Thenns demonstrate First Men social structure prior to the arrival of the Andals. The Andals brought kings, lords, knights, and houses. Royalty, commoners, kneeling and fealty... these were all Andal conventions.
The First Men followed a man that reminds me more of a 'Khal' than a 'Lord'. Magnars, like Khals, are leaders who are bound to the will of the gods.
There are differences, to be sure, but I find the office of Magnar to be very interesting. It isn't a king. It isn't a commander. It isn't a warden of the north. It is something entirely unique in Westeros that commands authority not because of political appointment, but because of duty to the gods.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And I am still convinced that - different - FM came both through the Bite and the Arm of Dorne.
Mayhaps. Multiple waves certainly would make sense. But that would make latter-men not-First Men.
Granted, I am a pedantic, semantic, asshole. LOL but that's how I make a living.
So in my mind, there is only one true group of First Men:
"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.
And these are the ones who are important, in my mind, to the Ice and Fire song-events. These are the men bound by the Pact: The ones who came by horse, carrying bronze swords and leathern shields. Any who came by boat would have been, in my head-canon, after the Pact and thus, not "First Men", in the true sense of the term.
Benjen and Lyanna would make a perfect Starkcest couple; they spent enough time together! jousting under the heart tree.
I'm a huge Benjen fan, and would love it if he were Jon's poppa. And there remains the fact that he joined the NW. Might be he did so as a means of atonement.
But I think Brandon makes for a better candidate. Brandon was known to take women and sheathe his sword in noble women beyond the bounds of wedlock.
Jon=Pure Wolfblood, born with the dead... and wolfblood unites two Starks, as well as their causes of death. But that is a future chapter....
Last Edit: Sept 20, 2017 7:37:44 GMT by voice: Dornish keyboard
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ned's dream ends as they rush together, and then the voices saying "Lord Eddard" meld with Lyanna's and wake him up, we don't ever actually hear his blade and Dawn's meet.
Five bucks says Ned's sword broke.
Well... we know Arthur would let him get another one before killing him, maybe Howland had some time to reason with him before they found one and convinced Dayne to take the black. Ned comes back with a sword and is all like "man, it's your sword I want" and Dayne is all like "then you shall have it Ser" and so sad. And Ned takes it to Starfall while Arthur goes to the Wall.
I'll place my money on Ned's sword breaking methinks!
It's actually the most plausible scenario IMO now that I think about it. I can't believe I've never heard it before.
1. Ned beating Arthur in single combat like his men say is damn near impossible, since Dawn puts Arthur over Barristan the Baddest level according to GRRM. 2. Howland never struck me as the backstabbing type, nor spell-weaving, and if the Great Dayne got felled by a fishing net by God, I'll be livid. 3. We're given precedent for how Arthur would react in the Smiling Knight anecdote. 4. Empathy for small folk and prophecies to save the world would lend to a belief that any means justifies the end IMO, even breaking BOTH lifetime vows he took. 5. He HAS to be Jon's father and Mance, right? RIGHT?
Benjen and Lyanna would make a perfect Starkcest couple; they spent enough time together! jousting under the heart tree.
Certainly they probably spent much time together, but Benjen was still youngish, but not impossible. Years ago in my home town, a youngish boy, 12 going on 13, got an older girl preggers, and yes, it was a scandal around these parts! It wasn't his sister, though, so Benjen and Lyanna would win the scandal contest!
Any of the brothers, and even Daddy Rickard is a viable option, depending on how you squint at the timeline!
A Kingsguard renounces his own House sigil, so I don't really look for Dayne imagery for him anymore. As an image there is a snowy white tent with antlers on top. With all the antlered helmets the Baratheons have, that's the first thing that comes to my mind. The species is secondary imagery wise to me, and as an image this screams Kingsguard flying the royal family's sigil to me.
If any of the Targaryen kingsguard members lived and fled north of the wall, I in no way see that they would hoist the Baratheon sigil, as a sign of the new king in Westeros. Arthur Dayne himself reported to Ned that their "knees do no bend easily" when asked why they didn't bend the knee with the other Targaryen forces at Storms End. There was no allegiance to Robert as the new king of Westeros, whom Ser Oswell Whent refer's as a usurper. No loyalty or respect to the usurper, a Baratheon, from those three kingsguard at the toj!
Imo, that belief is inherent in the language and the word "magnar" itself.
I have a feeling the Thenns demonstrate First Men social structure prior to the arrival of the Andals. The Andals brought kings, lords, knights, and houses. Royalty, commoners, kneeling and fealty... these were all Andal conventions.
The First Men followed a man that reminds me more of a 'Khal' than a 'Lord'. Magnars, like Khals, are leaders who are bound to the will of the gods.
There are differences, to be sure, but I find the office of Magnar to be very interesting. It isn't a king. It isn't a commander. It isn't a warden of the north. It is something entirely unique in Westeros that commands authority not because of political appointment, but because of duty to the gods.
Nice observation! The Thenn's are an interesting wildling group!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 20, 2017 15:15:46 GMT
I like the comparison between Royce & Jon's appearance. They are very similar. Both have the "Stark look", but not the name. We know Royce is probably related to the Starks and we know Jon is. Sneaky, sneaky!
I really love this chapter. 1) It's GOLD for my Craster theory. 2) Sucks you in right away. No matter what else you want to learn about the Others, the Night's Watch, etc. 3) Tells us what the true story is.
Off topic, I always wondered why Royce's sword didn't shatter right away. Almost like it waited until the Other wanted it to. The Others are dramatic!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
It's actually the most plausible scenario IMO now that I think about it. I can't believe I've never heard it before.
1. Ned beating Arthur in single combat like his men say is damn near impossible, since Dawn puts Arthur over Barristan the Baddest level according to GRRM. 2. Howland never struck me as the backstabbing type, nor spell-weaving, and if the Great Dayne got felled by a fishing net by God, I'll be livid. 3. We're given precedent for how Arthur would react in the Smiling Knight anecdote. 4. Empathy for small folk and prophecies to save the world would lend to a belief that any means justifies the end IMO, even breaking BOTH lifetime vows he took. 5. He HAS to be Jon's father and Mance, right? RIGHT?
I know! Didn't really think more of it myself until you put it down here, as I whent back to Bran instead.
1. Yeah, Arthur could beat Ned with his left hand while pissing taking a piss with his right blindfolded! Ned was supposedly an average swordsman IIRC. 2. I'll join you if that turns out to be the case! Don't forget all that time Howlad spent with the green men, what did he learn? I do see him saying something to Arthur that lines up with Arthur's own knowledge, and ending the fight. 3. It certainly gives more reason for the story of the Smiling Knight than a pure Jamie fangasm! We have a legendary swordsman and all we get is one story over and over? Parts of which is conveniently repeated only at or beyond the wall. 4. I think his office as SotM is the whole reason why he did anything. It stands to reason that information follows the sword relating to the Long Night, only passed to the holders of the office. Based on that I think he compared notes with Rhaegar and supported him, it could be the reason he took the white cloak. 5. I can see him continuing his mission first at and then beyond the Wall as Mance! And if Jon is half Dayne, I find Arthur the more probable Dayne parent even if I love the thought of Ned and Ashara. So yeah! Arthur is Mance If he's Jon's father? I'll hold off on concluding anything on that for now.
Don't forget all that time Howlad spent with the green men, what did he learn?
It just hit me that Howland could be the source of Lyanna's interest in someone if he mentions to her that he's seen her in some prophecy or dream from the green men and that she's supposed to be with Arthur (ok fine, or Rhaegar). I never really got why Lyanna would trust some random southern prince about his prophecy so he could get in her pants, even though she's shown disdain about a man that can't keep to one bed.
But if it was "her father's man" that put this idea in her head, well... that could certainly be a different story.
EDIT: AND I don't know if Arthur could fit the description of a slightly built person in mismatched armor with a booming voice, but he CERTAINLY has the skills to defeat the knights that the KotLT defeats, sticking up for the little guy fits in with what little we know of Arthur's character, it would pique Lyanna's interest in Arthur, AND it would tie Arthur to Howland and give a plausible reason to stop a fight between he and Ned.
I'm liking this rabbit hole ALOT, boys and girls. A WHOLE lot.
Certainly they probably spent much time together, but Benjen was still youngish, but not impossible. Years ago in my home town, a youngish boy, 12 going on 13, got an older girl preggers, and yes, it was a scandal around these parts! It wasn't his sister, though, so Benjen and Lyanna would win the scandal contest!
Any of the brothers, and even Daddy Rickard is a viable option, depending on how you squint at the timeline!
IMO that should be a scandal anywhere... But Benjen and Lyanna would takt the price for sure! If Starkcest, I hold all options open for now! Benjen is still in the game!
If any of the Targaryen kingsguard members lived and fled north of the wall, I in no way see that they would hoist the Baratheon sigil, as a sign of the new king in Westeros. Arthur Dayne himself reported to Ned that their "knees do no bend easily" when asked why they didn't bend the knee with the other Targaryen forces at Storms End. There was no allegiance to Robert as the new king of Westeros, whom Ser Oswell Whent refer's as a usurper. No loyalty or respect to the usurper, a Baratheon, from those three kingsguard at the toj!
I'm not taking about litterary flying banners here, just imagery. Baratheon has the whole stag, not just the antlers. Jon doesn't think of that when he sees it, and I doubt Stannis himself did. Just like Pyp with his ears and Grenn's nickname leads the thought to Whent and Hightower, a white tent with antlers on top leads my thoughts to Kingsguards with a royal sigil above. The reason is the Baratheons usage of antlered helms. And the three Kingsguards at toj is loyal to one man, and only one man: Rhaegar.
I like the comparison between Royce & Jon's appearance. They are very similar. Both have the "Stark look", but not the name. We know Royce is probably related to the Starks and we know Jon is. Sneaky, sneaky!
I really love this chapter. 1) It's GOLD for my Craster theory. 2) Sucks you in right away. No matter what else you want to learn about the Others, the Night's Watch, etc. 3) Tells us what the true story is.
Off topic, I always wondered why Royce's sword didn't shatter right away. Almost like it waited until the Other wanted it to. The Others are dramatic!
Haha, I feel my mind blowing every time I read this and Bran I!
voice, nice catch on the Stark-Royce-Thenn find! I got too bogged down in my own assosiation labyrinth (and still struggle to get somewhat out of it) to look further.
If any of the Targaryen kingsguard members lived and fled north of the wall, I in no way see that they would hoist the Baratheon sigil, as a sign of the new king in Westeros. Arthur Dayne himself reported to Ned that their "knees do no bend easily" when asked why they didn't bend the knee with the other Targaryen forces at Storms End. There was no allegiance to Robert as the new king of Westeros, whom Ser Oswell Whent refer's as a usurper. No loyalty or respect to the usurper, a Baratheon, from those three kingsguard at the toj!
Could you see the antlers as mocking Robert in a way? Robert is dead at this point, maybe it's Daynce's way of saying "I'm the antlered king now" or something. Maybe? Lol.
And isn't there a theory that Mance and Stannis were kind of working together, and that's why most of the wildlings aren't killed when Stannis routs on horseback? Maybe the antlers were a sign to Stannis?
Could you see the antlers as mocking Robert in a way? Robert is dead at this point, maybe it's Daynce's way of saying "I'm the antlered king now" or something. Maybe? Lol.
Or: "King? You won a few battles then got fat and lazy, I on the other hand has united the wildlings and fought the others! King my ass!"
It just hit me that Howland could be the source of Lyanna's interest in someone if he mentions to her that he's seen her in some prophecy or dream from the green men and that she's supposed to be with Arthur (ok fine, or Rhaegar). I never really got why Lyanna would trust some random southern prince about his prophecy so he could get in her pants, even though she's shown disdain about a man that can't keep to one bed.
But if it was "her father's man" that put this idea in her head, well... that could certainly be a different story.
Could be! I've always had the feeling that whichever man Lyanna had, she seduced him and not the other way around. Mayhaps even by accident. Like with the fight Arya and Gendry had: how easily that could turn into something more if they (or just Arya really) were older. Girls at 14 can be easy to mindfuck, but with the headstrong a planted seed is better. It coming from someone on "her side" is more probable than some random southron dude like you say!
EDIT: AND I don't know if Arthur could fit the description of a slightly built person in mismatched armor with a booming voice, but he CERTAINLY has the skills to defeat the knights that the KotLT defeats, sticking up for the little guy fits in with what little we know of Arthur's character, it would pique Lyanna's interest in Arthur, AND it would tie Arthur to Howland and give a plausible reason to stop a fight between he and Ned.
With the length of Dawn, wouldn't it be limited how short he could be? "Short stature" as the story says is vague. Hard to say! Other than that, I agree with the rest.
With the length of Dawn, wouldn't it be limited how short he could be? "Short stature" as the story says is vague. Hard to say! Other than that, I agree with the rest.
Yeah, I would imagine wielding a two-handed greatsword in single combat would be cumbersome without above average height and strength. Everyone that does it is pretty much described as colossal: Mountain, Strongboar, are there others?
Except for Mance, of course, and his height isn't remarked on as being special is it? I really need to review the chapter where Jon first meets him.