1.0 Prologue

This fits very nicely with sagenadia 's idea of

SAD's Suicidal Stance

I have no big problems with the idea that Arthur wanted Ned to be the last one standing, and then have a private word with him. Well, apart from the manner he got that private word, of course.


That was Donal Noye, who died in the tunnel fighting Mag the Mighty. Quoring picked Jon to join his ranging to spy on Mance.

Hate to butt in but it wasn't Qhorin who was the smith it was Donel Noye.

Yes, I have read that SSM and it makes sense, but I always remember GRRM statment that it's not canon until he writes it in a book.


I have plenty of thoughts and unanswered questions about the tourney of Harrenhal! These are but a few.


Although I like the connection to both Arthur and Jaime losing their sword hand, Qhorin still has his hand, although it certainly is maimed, and is unusable. Still, it does make a person wonder if this is a parallel, then was SAD also an ass before this incident, much like Jaime was, and became a better person afterwards, or is there an inverse in play, and SAD was a shining knight before the maiming and became a shifty arsehole afterwards? I personally would bet on the parallel more than the inverse.

Also, if Qhorin is Arthur, then SAD had grey eyes. It gives us a new shade to add to the Dayne eye color stew pot. And Jon might have unknowingly killed his own father!

Just had a thought. Has Qhorin lost any part of his hand as well as his fingers? Because fingers missing with no part of the palm gone seems almost like a Bolton like torture to me.


The description is vague as far as the palm goes, but three fingers are definitely missing. One would think if you caught a swinging axe coming at you, it would damage at least part of the palm, as well.


I do find it interesting that Jon "knew Qhorin Halfhand the instant he saw him, though they had never met". Is that a son recognizing his father on some level, or does Jon just recognize him from the missing fingers and faded blacks? Do we know if any of Ned's party at the toj used a battle axe? Is Qhorin's story truth or fiction?

So Qhorin is described as big, long-limbed, tall and straight as a spear, and clean shaven. Also as a man of slow words and swift action, and as solemn. Some of those descriptions don't really fit Jon, but solemn certainly does.

Some interesting quotes involving Qhorin and Jon.


Do we know if Ned returned Dawn to Starfall intact? Or to Starfall at all. Are the broken pieces of Dawn in the crypts of Winterfell. Is it the sword that calls to Jon, and not a spirit in the crypts? Is this a hint at LotR and Narsil, which is reforged into Anduril. Maybe Dawn is the sword that needs to be reforged for Jon and not Ice?


Whether Qhorin is Arthur or not, I think he is certainly telling us he shares the blood of the first men, just like Jon and the Starks. Qhorin is definitely giving credit to the old gods being strong in Jon to his Stark blood, I believe.


So, Qhorin denies he is a lordling, but this could just be him sticking to some story. He knows Ned and Rickard before him. Is Qhorin to old to be SAD? Qhorin's hair has some grey, "touched by hoarforst", where as Ned only had some grey in his beard, indicating that Qhorin might be closer to Mormont's age than Eddard's. His age is vague but he speaks as if Mance is younger than him. He might not be much older than Ned at all, however.

He tells Jon, "you have your father's look", which means Qhorin knew Jon's father enough to recognize him. Is he talking of himself as SAD? Is he talking about Ned? Is he talking about Rickard, who could be Jon's father? Is he talking of Rhaegar or Mance or a half-million other people? If Qhorin is exactly who he claims to be, how well did he know Rickard and Eddard?

An interesting comment about Ghost returning by dawn. If Jon has to stab Ghost with Dawn, I am going to be very unhappy!

Qhorin is certainly interested in Jon as a Stark and for having a direwolf.


Again, dawn (and maybe Dawn) is tied to Qhorin! It's meant to draw our attention. And it does.


Qhorin calls on Jon as the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch to do "whatever" to Ygritte. He never meant for Jon to kill her. Was it Jon's honor as a Stark that he was betting on? Was it that he knew Jon's father would not kill a woman and he bet on Jon not wanting to either?
If this is in reference to himself as SAD, was the woman he was supposed to kill Lyanna? If this is in reference to Ned, was the woman he was supposed to kill Ashara?


Jon and Qhorin both have grey eyes. Could be a connection, or it might not be. Could Qhorin share Stark blood? Do we ever know what Qhorin's last name was before he became known as Halfhand? Is it possible that Qhorin coudl be a Stark bastard on the wall? Probably not, but if so, would he be Rickard's son, or would he belong to another Stark lord.

Qhorin claims he is no lord, but so does Jon, and we know that Jon comes from a family of high birth. Could Qhorin, as well?


Qhorin is speaking of Mance, but it does remind that SAD had a sad smile at the toj. Sadness seems to be associated with Ser Arthur Dayne.


It is almost fatherly the way Qhorin imparts important information to Jon. And we need to be paying attention, too. The wall's fate is tied to Jon in some way! Or Jon's fate is tied to the wall!


If Qhorin heard this tale when he was no older than Jon, then he heard it as a 15 year old. It lessens the chances in my mind that Qhorin could be SAD, or any of the missing kingsguard from the toj. However, this story could theoretically have been told by a Night's Watch brother who was traveling in the south.

And we get another Dawn reference with Qhorin; this is the third such reference, if my count is accurate.


This might eventually mirror Jaime learning to fight well with is left hand. So far, Jaime has a ways to go!


Both Jon and Qhorin have maimed right hands, but while Qhorin was forced to learn to fight with his left, Jon is still able to manage with is right. And Qhorin is certainly a much better swordsman than Jon. Maybe a hint at the SAD idea? We will find that Mance is much better than Jon, too!


This line has always reminded me of Ned and him supposedly killing Ser Arthur Dayne. I really am inclined to think that SAD did die that day at the toj, and by Ned's hand, but did SAD place some type of oath or duty on Ned. And did Ned fulfill that duty, or is that one of the broken promises Ned thinks of near the end?



It is interesting we get introduced to the Bael the Bard story, and the sadness of a son unknowingly killing a father, not long before Jon kills Qhorin. Certainly, these are the types of hints that GRRM could be giving us, if Qhorin is Arthur. Or if Mance is Arthur, maybe Jon will truly have to kill him one day, not just his glamoured image in a burning cage.

I am not sure when Arthur might have been canoodling (great word BTW) with Lyanna in the crypts, but we have enough missing time for it to be possible, but no other hints, that I am aware of.

So, that was a long, meandering journey, but since it investigates several hints at Jonno's parentage, I don't think I went to far off topic. And it was fun, at least for me!

Thanks. It's fun to do stuff like that. Sift through people or certain words or phrases and see what shakes loose!


I don't think I have read this essay but I obviously need too! Thanks for the link!


I still think it's pretty vague, and we don't know how long ago he lost those fingers. At one point I read that Qhorin put the bleeding fist of his maimed hand in the wildlings face to blind him, so fist indicates to me that he had most of his hand left! It also brings to mind Three-finger Hobb! Maybe the Night's Watch picked Halfhand because Two-finger Qhorin didn't have a ring to it!

If Ser Royce is an archetype for Jon's character and Sansa had a crush on Ser Royce does that mean Jon x Sansa is end game? Jon Snow is a big candidate for Azor Ahai and Brandon of the Bloody Blade is the only Age of Hero character that suits the myth of AA and Brandon did married his half sister Rose of the Red(Blue) Lake. Rose of Red Lake was called Rose of Blue Lake before Brandon's slaughter of Children of the Forest changed the lake's name to Red Lake. Rose of Red Lake had red hair. Brandon and Rose were the parents of Brandon the Builder - which makes Rose the original Stark woman with association to Blue Rose. It could also mean that Jon will continue the Stark family?

Saw Mance could be Rhaegar, he isn't. Rhaegar was cremated after the Trident. Arthur however is a possibility I am open to.