1.5 Jon

Haha, congrats with starting the thread! You beat me to it, as I was wondering if I should do it tonight or leave it till tomorrow.


Yes, Jon really struggles with Ned fathering a bastard. Turning out to be one amongst many would be devestating, and imo not fruitfull for the story. It's one of the cases where if true, I hope he never finds out.


Jon is also slender and on the shorter side, so definitely not a giant.
And I agree with your assesment in using looks to tie him to Robert via other bastards. Then we have to use other things, and tied to Jon himself I see very little.


We have two possibilities for quiet and introvert, and the non-silverhaired shares a lot more with Jon! To the point of Jon being his little mini-me. So either an infographic isn't needed, or it would cause total havoc in the RLJ community.


Yes, being possibly the youngest conqueror in the story has nothing to do with it. And the one closest to Jon's own age is totally irrelevant.


If Benjen was his dad I doubt he would have much to say in who would raise him, as he himself was so young at the time. As he joined the Watch so young, I think he's talking of experience and regretting that he didn't taste more of life before joining. Possibly regretting not fathering any lille snows first. I doubt he's a virgin though, but I think he's mostly faithfull to his vows.


It is a nice introduction of Tyrion. He seems like one of the most developed characters so early on!

So, I'll at least start on my notes on Jon! Not sure if I have time to finish up in one go. And I'll try to make it coherent; I see lines in several directions via each other so it might be a bit jumbled.



In Eddard we get a picture of Robert being a Summer King:


This really is an ode to summer! Or might I say an ode to Summer of Love, in the sixties kinda way?

As we move into Jon's POV, the first we see is him contemplating that there are a few advantages in being a bastard:



As a bastard, he can get away with something his siblings couldn't this night: get drunk! Combined with those tales of battles, bedding and hunt, and finished with liking the bawdier company than the uptight and strickt official company. We have a connection with Robert clearly established!

However, I will now point out that we get this first:


We haven't seen this so far in the story, but we soon learn that Rhaegar is mostly associated with a high harp, singing a sad song that makes women weep. Could this song be a ballad? Even though it's mentioned so many times during the books, we don't get the text; here Jon can't hear the words. A nice image, no?
Clever to put a Rhaegar reference in the background there. Then he draws a link to Robert, and we get the triangle Robert - Lyanna - Rhaegar connected to Jon.

But back to Jon, Robert and kings!


So the man didn't live up to his legend! This theme will be prevalent in the story in a general sense, and I'm sure with what ever solution Martin has in store for us with Jon's father.
As I said earlier here, Robert being his father would be quite devestating imo. We have seen that Ned and Robert are the polar opposite, of the kind that can still be great friends, and Ned has been Jon's rolemodel and guiding compass in life.
It's really interesting that Jon sees Cersei as an ice queen later; again I get a Robert - Lyanna connection there as Lyanna is Ice as a Stark. No further speculation on what this might mean will come from me here.

But the visitors are not all a dissapointment:


I'm not sure if Jon has a somewhat romatic view of what a king should look like, or if it's a legacy of the Targaryens, but it seemed a bit Sansa-like to be honest!
Two things I find interesting here. First that Jamie is wearing red and black, the Targaryen colors. (No, I'm not going into "Jamie's a Targ!".) In addition he is beautiful, and looks like a king. Or a prince, mayhaps? Again, I'm reminded of Rhaegar. And he's being compared with Robert.
Second, he is a Knight of the Kingsguard, the best sword in the realm at the time if SSMs are to be relied upon re: swordsmen, and he wears a black cloak. I hear tinfoil crinckling! I do find it interesting that the one besides Tyrion that Jon finds the most interesting is a soiled Kingsguard.


Now the story changes pace when Benjen comes, but we do get a little segway:


Summerwine. Again.
"Nothing so sweet." Not even love? Lyanna's statement to Ned comes to mind here.
And Benjen getting drunk for the first time before he was 14. Might I suggest that this happened at Harrenhall?

The conversation between them is interesting on many levels, but I'll consentrate on my personal favorite at the moment and ingredient in our alphabet soup.


The better sword of the two boys have skills that could be of use in a celibate order, and Jon wants to join.


This is a fairly poetic way of putting it! Is blood the seal of their devotion too? The focus on a celibate life is very heavy, and we do have another order that is modelled on this one.
Later we meet a member of the latter order that falls for temptation, mayhaps without knowing a woman first, who learns the secret that an earlier brother did break that part of his oath.
Yes, I see Ser Arthur Dayne here!


This will have to do for tonight!

Yeah! A Jon POV, which are my favorites. Well, Ned and Jon!

I am trying to look over these chapters before I look at anyone else thoughts, to keep outside influence at bay. Sorry if I end up repeating any other thoughts or quotes!

This time around, I think I will look at passage and quotes in order and see who they remind me off in the Mommy or Daddy department.


The mentions of summerwine bring to mind two people in the Daddy department for Jon, Robert and Rhaegar.

Robert has told Ned, and us, in the last chapter, how he loves summerwine, and he loves to get drunk on summerwine. Jon is doing a pretty good job of getting drunk on summerwine in this chapter when there is no influence of Eddard to slow his drinking down. Sounds like Robert to me!

And Rhaegar in a small way, because the reference of summerwine makes me think of Summerhall, and though we won't hear about Summerhall or what happened there, for a long, long time in the story. It is a connection for me to Rhaegar. However, in the text, Summerhall never comes up mentioned in a Jon POV or when Jon is present in a POV. In the text is is usually in a Dany POV, or Davos in regards to either Robert or Stannis, and once in an Arya POV, referenced by the Ghost of High Heart.

At this point in the chapter, Jon is smiling, but we will find out that Eddard isn't smiling at all, and I don't think he really does at all in this chapter. He is brooding, like Jon often does.


The harp reference does bring Rhaegar to mind. I also note that the sound of it could scarcely be heard where Jon is at. I don't know if that means something or not!

Of course, looking back, could this be Mance playing and singing? It sure probably is.

There are a hundred drunken conversations so Robert and Jon are not the only people over imbibing at this feast. Still, Jon will later make a bit of a scene when he leaves the hall, and it seems like Robert is making a bit of a scene the whole night.


Jon drinking as much as he thirsted for and is enjoying talk of battle and bedding and hunting all make me think of Robert Baratheon, who likes nothing better then bedding, battle and hunting. It's almost an overt nod to Robert!


Jon tells us he is disappointed in the king, as he see's Robert as fat, sweaty and walking like a drunk. If Robert is Jon's father, it will be a huge disappointment to him, I would think.

I do think it is interesting that it seems that Ned talked often of Robert to Jon. Did Ned talk about Robert to Robb and Bran as much as he did Jon, or is there something special in what he told Jon? Is this because Robert is Jon's father, or is it simply Ned talking about his best friend, who he went to war against and overthrew a dynasty?

One of the things that has surprised me in looking back at the text is how mean Jon is about Myrcella.


While Jon notes her looks, he also decides quickly at the timid smile that she gives Robb, that she is both insipid and stupid. Wow, Jonno! Now, I have often debated that this could indicate that Jon might have to marry Myrcella at some point to end the Lannister-Stark civil war, but of course, there is heavy foreshadowing for Myrcella's death. I don't know what Jon's quickness to judge Myrcella might mean as far as parentage, but I do think it's a bit premature, as I think that Myrcella seems like rather a sweet and kind child, nothing like her mother. It is possible that Jon's thoughts on Myrcella are all related to jealously because Robb has been allowed to walk with Myrcella. He also could be shadowing some of his thoughts on Cersei onto Myrcella as well. Jon is quickly dismissive of Cersei. Jon also seems a bit dismissive of Joffrey, but I wonder if this is because Sansa seems so pleased to be walking with the crown prince.

Joffrey is noted to have golden curls and deep green eyes, and be taller than Robb or Jon, and Jon thinks Joff looks disdainfully at Winterfell's hall, which certainly Jon does not appreciate.

Jon is much more interested in the Lannister brothers.


Jon is very impressed with Jaime and cannot seem to look away from Tyrion. It's an odd connection, and I can't help but put my tinfoil to use and wonder if Jon could have Lannister blood. Blech! I do have some tinfoil involving Ned and Cersei, but if she bore a child to Ned, she would know that Maggy the Frog's prophecy was incorrect. There is also the thought that Tywin could somehow be Jon's father, which I would pretty much hate, but I can't count it out. 

Still, Jon thinks Jaime is what "a king should look like". Jaime is tall and golden, flashing green eyes. So, GRRM is giving us a Lannister type, and we don't note it now, but we certainly do in a few chapters, at how much Joffrey and his siblings favor the Lannister's and not Robert Baratheon at all. They are pure Lannister in looks, just like Jaime, just like Cersei! Tyrion has the coloring to some extent but is of course, missing the beauty of his siblings.

I think it is interesting that Jaime is dressed in crimson and black (cloak and boots) and we will come to find that these are Targaryen colors. Is this why Jon thinks Jaime looks like a king should, because of his clothing? Or is it something else. I have also always wondered if Jaime wearing a black cloak here is foreshadowing that he someday will join the Night's Watch brotherhood, trading his kingsguard brotherhood for a different brotherhood. Or maybe Jaime is foreshadowing his secret Targaryen blood? So many possibilities.

Tyrion, with one green eye and one black eye is interesting. He could not be described in a more ugly manner by our author, and I have to think that GRRM was going for opposites, with the beautiful twins and the ugly dwarf. Tyron has a hank of white hair, that could indicate some Targaryen blood, but I also note that Tommen is described as having white-blond hair, which could just be the same shade of Tyrion's.


Just like Robert!


So we met Jon's direwolf pup again, with its white hair and red eyes. Now, I know that this coloring is often used to tie Jon to the Targeryen's and that might be the case, but maybe this pup should be white haired and purple eyed if it is a Targaryen direwolf. Too obvious you say? Well, maybe. To me, Ghost is the color of the weirwoods and associated with the old gods. Bloodraven is also this color, white hair, red eye, but he too is not colored like a Targaryen as much as he is colored like the weirwood tree's and the old gods.


Several things of note in this passage.

We get a description of another Stark, and he has long legs, sharp-featured and gaunt, but he has blue-grey eyes and those eyes always have a hint of laughter. So Benjen looks a bit different than Ned, as far as I am concerned. Jon doesn't describe him with a long-face, as we have in description of Rickard, nor dark hair, although I think most people assume Benjen has dark hair. Jon is not described as having long legs, being sharp-featured, gaunt, or having a blue tint to his eyes. I don't think Benjen and Jon look terribly much alike, at least they don't have descriptive words in common.

I enjoy the fact that Benjen admits to getting roaring drunk on summerwine, and so we can note that it is not only Jon and Robert that have a predilection for the stuff. Tyrion too, loves his wine, we will soon see, and get's so drunk he feels the need to leave the feast.

The most telling think that jumps out at me in this passage, and it didn't hit me for seveal rereads, and then I felt so stupid not to have seen it, is Jon telling Benjen, and us, that Ghost is a quiet wolf, that he never makes a sound. In Meera and Jojen's tale of Harrenhal, Eddard is the quiet wolf.

Jon has been given the quiet wolf by the old gods, and a man who is no doubt in touch with the old gods (Howland) has nicknamed Eddard the quiet wolf. As far as I am concerned, it is a huge nod in the direction of Ned being Jon's bio-father!


Not withstanding that this passage is maybe our first clue that Catelyn and Jon do not have a warm relationship, I think it's interesting that Jon, whom Benjen claims "doesn't miss much", notes Eddard, Robert and Cersei at the head table, but it is only Ned and Cersei's behavior that he comments on. Robert is almost like a non-entity to Jon, while he knows that Ned is upset about something, and Cersei is angry and like an ice sculputure. It is not the first time or the last that Cersei will be associated with snow, cold or ice. Whether it means something, or not, I have no idea! ... cough, Night's Queen, cough...

Also, I think that Ned's behavior in this passage could be describes as brooding. And that is something that Jon is often accused of. Tight, quiet, hooded eyes seeing nothing is rather brooding, which is defined as moody or sullenly thoughtful or serious.


Jon has pride here, which makes me think of the Lannisters. Jon tells us he is better with a sword than Robb, which brings to mind Arthur Dayne, Jaime Lannister, Brandon Stark and Mance Rayder. He tells us he sit's a horse well, which brings to mind Lyanna and Brandon. The fact that Jon isn't as good with a lance as Robb makes me think of Rhaegar, who at least won tourney (although he might have cheated), and also gave Lyanna a rose crown on the end of a lance, so I associate Rhaegar with lances while I don't associate Jon with lances.


I think it's very interesting that at the mention of Jon being a bastard, or about Luwin's comment about bastards growing up faster than other children, but it seems to upset Benjen enough that he starts drinking like Robert Baratheon. Why is this so upsetting to Benjen? Is it because he knows that Jon isn't a bastard at all?


Whether Jon ends up being a bastard or some true born heir to some great household, he thinks like a bastard and it has shaped him into the young man he is. That will never change, no matter the truth of his parenthood.

I also think this is another indicator that Benjen isn't Jon's father, as he claims he will never father sons. Now, that doesn't mean he wont father daughters, and I do wonder if Benjen doesn't have a few illegitimate children scattered around.


Here is the passage that makes me almost certain that Benjen isn't Jon's father. "More's the pity" he says, when Jon tells him he is not his father. It seems like an honest expression to me. However, Benjen does almost talk like he himself might have fathered a few bastards before he took his vows, and since I keep my tinfoil handy, I wonder about Jojen Reed, who's name is rather similar to Benjen's. Now, maybe this is just a hint that Howland named his son after the Stark that was the KOTLT in a sign of appreciation! Still, rumor's abound about the truth of Meera's parenthood, and it would be ironic if she and Jojen were both Stark bastards, raised by loyal Howland Reed. Still, if Benjen has children, my money is on girls.

It also strikes me that Benjen is a bit callous in his flippant remarks about bastards. Maybe he has never before realized how upsetting the circumstances of Jon's birth are to him.

This heated statement by Jon is what almost makes me sure that he will indeed father a bastard!

While Jon seems upset about this, Robert fathers bastards without a care in the world, planting a seed and leaving it to fend for itself. I think Jon will certainly care about the bastard seed's he sew's, just as Ned has done!


Jon leaving the feast, unsteady, drunk and causing a scene does remind me of Robert. I think at the feast for the Hand's tourney, Robert was so drunk he needed to be escorted back to the castle.

This is the only time I think that we see Jon get full on drunk. He drinks wine up at the wall, but doesn't ever seen to get impaired, unless you count the weirdness of his stabbing. Oh, and when he is trying to make a deal with Tycho Nestoris. This is certainly a difference between he and Robert, although, Robert has years of life experience weighing him down and influencing his choices.

Tyrion refer's to him as "the bastard" which does indicate to me that Tyrion has been party to some talk about Ned's bastard before the Kings party ever reaches Winterfell. It does lead some credence to the idea that either Robert or Cersei came north with the idea that they wanted to look at Ned Stark's bastard son.

I think it's very interesting that Jon "felt a coldness pass right through him" when Tyrion calls him Ned's bastard. What is the coldness? Is it some feeling that Jon recognizes that is not the truth? Is it the ghost of some spirit lying in Winterfell telling Jon that is not the truth? Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard, the three tombs we just visited in the previous chapter. Coldness passing through people is something I associate with hauntings, and I can't shake the idea that something at Winterfell is trying to tell Jon something at this time.

Jon admits that Ned is his father, although I don't think he has yet come to terms with calling himself a bastard. Jon is on a mission of growing up, and by the beginning of Clash, we see that Jon can call himself a bastard and even smile about it. But not yet, not now. Maybe he needed time, maybe he needed Tyrion's advice? And Tyrion does give him good advice, "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."

Then, the line that really makes me consider Starkcest as a viable option for Jon. "You have more of the north in you than your brothers". This could very well indicate that Jon has two Stark parents, two northern parents, or it could just indicate that there isn't much of the north in the sons that Catelyn bore Ned. We know that is true as far as looks, but as far as behaviors, I think Robb, Bran and especially wild Rickon have plenty of the north in them. Still, it's a fascinating line!


And now, finally, we get another hint to the mystery of Jon Snow. Until this moment, I don't think the reader realized that Jon doesn't know who his mother is/was. And I think our mind makes a pretty easy transition to the woman that we just met in the last chapter, the woman who might be dead but her presence lies heavily in the Winterfell crypts, and who might have just passed through Jon with a hint of coldness while he talks about his bastard status. Actually, the only mystery ever presented by the author is about who Jon's mother is. It is the reader, us, who create the mystery of Jon's father, because by gosh, if Lyanna is Jon's mother, then there is no way that Eddard could be his father. So who is Jon's father? It's rather craftily done!

What a great chapter! Hints of Robert and Rhaegar as Jonno's bio-dad, maybe even Mance or Arthur, hints at Stark parentage or possibly Lannister blood. And the fact that Jon's mother is a complete mystery to him and a puzzle that we, the reader, needs to solve!

Picking up where I left off!

As I pointed out earlier, Jon gets tied with Robert with heavy drinking and bawdy tales. However, if this is meant to be a mirror for a young Robert, the picture is not so accurate as the chapter goes on. First we are told this is one time being a bastard is better, but after the royals and his family is seated it is made clear that his drinking is also because of him being pushed to the back. His reaction to Benjen's talk of bastards clearly shows this is a very sensitive point for him. As I think everybody knows, alcohol enhances our true state of mind at the time. I highly doubt Robert drank in selfpity as a young man! So the Jon - Robert connection really only holds water if it is with the current Robert imo.

We also get another parallell to Robert: Robb! In Bran he is described as muscular, strong and fast, and laughing; later we also see he is rather hot tempered. Jon thinking of him as acting like a fool is interesting! It tells me Jon's nature is quite the opposite.

Now I'll sircle back to Benjen.
First off, I just LOVE the way Benjen interacts with Jon! It is so at ease, and seems like the most natural relationship Jon has with any family member. The one that shows him so much warmth without his bastard status getting any attention. And this is a to me a pointer that he is not a real contender as his father.
I do think he knows the truth! I find it curious that when Jon mentions that bastards grow up faster, Benjen gets a downward twist of his mouth. Until now he's been described as a joyfull man. He also takes a long drink of that sweet summerwine. His reaction is tickling my mind!
 He sees the tention that this creates in the family as well, in particular with Catelyn. As Ned said when they found the pups:


Maybe he should've warned Catelyn of the same? Some jealousy is to be expected, but her treatment of Jon is only fueling the potential fire. So I think Benjen's comment of needing people like Jon on the Wall is in part to look for a solution to this potential future problem.
He then procedes to look into Jon's motivations for wanting to join, and Jon fails the test. He clearly sees Jon's potential, but it's also clear that the reason is in part wanting to be a hero and that he hasn't really thought it through. In the end he tells Jon to live a bit before making this decision.
We also get another tidbit:


Benjen brings up the price of an oath, and of not truly know what that means. I've already pointed out the possibility of this meaning Jon's father having taken an oath not to father sons. We will also learn that Ned thinks of the price he paid to keep his promise (an oath?) to Lyanna, but this part of their conversation will also have interesting an echo in a Ned chapter coming up soon. So watch this space!

After Jon leaves the hall he notices the lone sentry on the battlements with his cloak. This is forshadowing Jon leaving for the Wall, but I wonder if it also point to his father taking a similar choice. This is right after talk of sworn men and fathering bastards. Yes, I'm polishing my Arthur = Mance = Jon's father tinfoil, but it will also work with NAJ and A=M. The sentry's cloak is probably grey as this is the Stark color, but that also lies inbetween the white and the black of our two sworn brotherhoods.

Now Tyrion enters the picture, and their conversation is interesting indeed!


I wonder, is this Ned's reaction to any question of Jon's mother? IIRC the only time we know he said anything to this question is at Robert's probing in a few chapters. Is his only reaction to either say nothing and/or saying something like "He is my son" OR "He is my blood"? The difference of the two wordings can be debated for eternity. 


Jon having so much of the north in him, gives the possibility of Starkcest.
To armor himself in his status we kinda see in a later dream of Jon's, where he's armored in black ice. And this makes me think of the KG armored in white, and even seen armored in snow in Jamie's dream.


First off, Jon's mother is probably not just "some woman". I know this is obvious, but had to say it!
Tyrion's answer to Jon saying he is trueborn is interesting! It does make me wonder if Jon is really baseborn. Being a bastard does fit his arc, and being really trueborn (and mayhaps even a true heir to something) is somewhat of a trope even if you take out the hidden prince part. So Martin sets it up nicely here! Is he, or isn't he?

The brooding part used to always remind me of Rhaegar, or what little we know about him, but honestly, looking at the story, I see that Robert brood's quite a bit in our story, but not in this chapter, and appears sullen at times, words that come to mind when describing Jon. But also in this very chapter, we see Eddard sitting quiet at the high table, watching with hooded eyes and a tightness about him and observing courtesies but saying little. This sounds very much like brooding to me. And Jon is certainly in tune enough to Eddard, and his feelings, I have no doubt. And then when he talks about Cersei, he notes that "The queen is angry too". Too indicates also to me, and since Jon's previous two descriptions are of Robert, who is not angry at all but rather festive, and Eddard. So is Jon noting that Ned is the other angry person at the high table? Or is he talking about himself, because he is angry at not being seated with his family?


Haha! The infamous infographic! I will say that quiet and introverted could be an indication of Ned, and the white direwolf, as shymaid points out, could be a hint at a white cloaked father for Jonno.

White also makes me think of snow. This early morning when I got up and took the dog out, it was snowing here, large fluff flakes in the darkness with no wind so they drifted quietly to the ground. Can snow make a sound? No, but the weather around it changes our impressions of it, and this morning the snow was quiet and white and that reminds me of Ghost! The white direwolf for a bastard son of the north!


I used to associate Daeren Targaryen with Jon as well, and felt like Jon would rise fast and fall faster, predicting an early death for Jon (ignoring Jon's stabbing in Dance as we don't know if he is dead or not), but after a reread, I felt like Daeren was more a hint to us of Robb than Jon. The Young Dragon's rise and fall mirror's the Young Wolf's rise and fall! Warrior kings, marching south to conquest, strong leaders and war effort and killed by foul means; Robb murdered under a pledge of guest right at a wedding and Daeren murdered under a banner of peace in Dorne. RIP Robb and Grey Wind! And RIP Daeren!


Haha! No doubt, I will find it uncomfortable as well. Zofran at standby.

However, I kind of think that Jon will father a bastard, but he will claim and raise that child as his own, mirroring Eddard Stark raising Jon. Whether Ned turns out to be Jon's bio-dad, he certainly is his father in all the ways that count, and I think Jon will mirror Eddard in this. I am not sure that bastard child will be with Dany, but I might feel that way because I just don't want it to happen.

It would be tough for Jon to find out he is one of Robert's many bastards, but there is a chance that Robert might have married Lyanna, making Jon his true born heir. It's not in my top beliefs but it is certainly possible, and it would make it a bit easier for Jon to deal with, I think.

As you say, Jon does really seem to struggle with the idea of Ned having a bastard. I always thought it was because Jon hated his bastard status, but maybe it is because the idea cast's a hint of shame toward Ned, whom everyone, including Jon, see's as so honorable. Does Jon see himself as a blight on Ned's honor? I am sure Ned never felt like Jon was a burden or a blight, but maybe.


This is great! Made me teary eyed!

Yes, most definitely. I think it was lynn that proposed the idea of a Summer King and a Winter King being connected in imagery of the horned god. But I don't remember what thread it was on. But there is certainly a similarity between the two concepts, as well as opposing ideas/seasons/imagery! Ned and Robert, best buddies who are really nothing alike!


Haha! Yes, there is a bit of a "free love" vibe in Robert's statement. Robert would have loved the 60's, I think!


It's only been in the last year I even focused on these statements, as I used to think these are normal things for a young man to want to talk about, but when I put Robert in mind with Jon, it seems like a clear nod. Now, is it too obvious? I don't know.

This could be a nod to Rhaegar or to Mance!

Well, that is interesting. I don't think of Cersei as much like the icy Stark's, but she does have a lot of winter imagery around her. It flares up my Ned and Cersei tinfoil again. But it does also make a person wonder about Robert/Lyanna and Robert/Cersei as far as marriages go. If Lyanna and Cersei both share icy imagery, does that indicate that Robert, the Summer King, would have struggled being married to either woman?

That is a rather romantic view, isn't it? A connection between Jon and Sansa, the sibling I think he is least like.

The Targaryen imagery is strong in the way that Jaime is dressed. I used to think that it was a clear nod to Jon being drawn to the color's of red and black, the Targaryen color's, and it still might be.

The kingsguard idea is interesting here, except Jaime doesn't look anything like a kingsguard in this scene, and Jon doesn't even pay attention to the other two members of the kingsguard that are in Winterfell, even though I believe they are mentioned as dressed in white in a coming Bran chapter. Of course, Boros Blount and Meryn Trant are not the ideal kingsguard of songs and poems.

Sweetness in our story does have a bit of a sad or sour connotation. Sweet might not be good!

Or maybe if Jon finds, but denies it. Or refuses to claim it, rather remaining a brother of the Night's Watch and always being known as a bastard of Eddard Stark, in spite of whatever the truth might be. There are a few ways around the hidden prince trope, unless he just isn't a hidden prince at all!

Ah, Brandon, the eldest, the true heir, it was all meant for Brandon. Wouldn't it be sadly ironic if the "son" most like Ned isn't his son at all!


I have argued in the past that it was Ned that at least kept Jon out of weapons practice and the hunt, as that is a man's domain. I do think the feast is probably Catelyn's. If Jon is truly Ned's or Brandon's son, there is no reason to hide him at all, I agree. If there is a Robert connection, then in makes sense for Jon to be hidden from the Lannisters, as they might seek to harm him. If he is Rhaegar's son, it is best to hide him from Robert and the Lannisters for the same reason.

As you point out, Jon is close enough to the procession that Rickon can easily see him and become distracted by Jon. Cersei seen him at some point in her stay in Winterfell, although we don't know if this is the time she is talking about. I was thinking the text said that Cersei never looked at Jon as she walked past but I guess that Jon notes that Cersei actually never looked at Ned. Hmm!

So, if Jon wasn't hidden from anyone at Winterfell, then why not at least let him practice at swords or go on the kings hunt? I still think it's odd. Unless it is that Ned truly thinks it would bring shame on all the true born's to have to mix with a bastard. It might be that simple. Ned does tell us, with angst in his voice in the next chapter, that there is no place for a bastard in the south and at court!

Now, if Jon is a legitimized bastard of Ned's, he is still behind Ned's true born children in the succession, but if he is a legitimized bastard of Brandon, who was the eldest, that does make Jon the heir to Winterfell, I would think. It still might be a lot of grey area, but grey is a Stark color. It is certainly something to consider.

And it is possible that the only person that Ned is hiding Jon's parentage from is Catelyn. Ned does tell us later that he worries what Catelyn might do to Jon if she felt her own children needed to be protected. Ned worries about Cat's reaction to Jon, no doubt! This could be based on Brandon as Jon's father, or Jon being Ned's eldest son.


Yes, being Benjen or Lyanna's son doesn't give Jon inheritance rights to Winterfell, unless all of Eddards children are illegitimate or dead. But being Brandon's son, or Ned's eldest changes the complexion of things is a huge way!

Yes, I see the similarities between Robb and Robert too, and I have even speculated that Robb could be Robert's but it's a hard sell, even for myself, and I like shiny, shiny tinfoil. But it does illustrate in some ways how different Jon and Robb are, and if Robb is a bit like Robert, then that means there are not so subtle differences between Robert and Jon.

It is possible that Jon was always intended for the watch, but just not so early. Ned thinks he is too young. Benjen thinks he is too young and needs to father some bastards (Benjen does not share Ned's constipation problem over bastards!). But Benjen might recognize Jon for what he is, a Stark warg with a powerful direwolf, and a valuable weapon in the coming troubles. Maybe Benjen hoped to plant the seed in Jon's mind, and have it bear fruit in a couple years, when Jon was older and ready to serve in the Night's Watch. Circumstances ended up placing Jon on the wall far sooner than anyone had planned.

I think this is clear foreshadowing for Jon as a member of the nights watch, alone on the wall, his cloak billowing in the wind. I don't see the kingsguard aspect here at all. But, to counter-argue with myself, the fact that I say "clear foreshadowing" is nearly hysterical considering the scope of the misdirection in the text, and so really, anything is possible in the foreshadowing department.

It's maddeningly vague, but if it wasn't, we would have to mystery to solve!

Yes, Starkcest or at least two northern parents, is my best guess. Also, it could be telling us that Ned's children by Cat don't have much of the north in them. But I think they all do, maybe not in looks, but in actions. Sansa the least, but she still has some of the north in her!


So many great idea's here. I have been wanting to dig into this thread, but playoff baseball has been taking up my time. But since I woke up at the asscrack of dawn, I had enough time and enough lovely coffee to read through peoples thoughts.

I've never really seen much I can identify as Rhaegaresque in Jon, so I've connected it to Ned/general Stark. I did notice the other day that Gendry was described by Ned as sullen, so... Still, I mostly associate Robert with laughter and fiery temper that flares up and dies down quickly, Jon is nothing like that.


Could be a double meaning, and also point to himself. He doesn't say who else he thinks is angry, so it's hard to say. As he then connects it to the crypts, it's either Robert or Ned? Or maybe Catelyn is pissed that Jon was too visible.


Gods, now I kinda want to go to a convention in a t-shirt with a Starkcest infographic! Just to poke fun.


Yup!


I did say that tounge it cheek, still I saw it as I read it. If this was deliberate it's taken down later when Robb is called the Young Wolf, which I see as a clear nod and quite the forshadowing of his fate.
RIP Robb and Grey Wind! RIP Daeren! And while I'm at it: RIP Baelor Breakspear!



And the bolded in particular!


Jon tries to emulate Ned in so many ways, and being honorable is a big part of that. Learning he is a bastars of a man who is just about the opposite (not saying Robert is a bad guy, just that his morals in certain areas is rather lacking), could be a hard swallow. And I'm not sure if them being betrothed would make that much difference. Already he has the opposition of the stories Ned told and the king he saw. Still, I think he will make it out of any crisis due to parentage in the end. And I suspect any parent combo excluding Ned would be difficult.

His problem with (officially) being a bastard is two-part. One is the cultural view of bastards that he brings up time and time again, but that is the surface level. As we see in his conversation with Aemon (RIP ) later, he hesitates answering what Ned would do after thinking of Ned fathering a bastard. On one level it is that Ned didn't do what is right and honorable, but it also shows that his conflicted feelings is deeper. Even if we idolize our parents we know they are human and make mistakes even when we are 14-15, so I think Jon knows Ned is not perfect. But he is the embodiment of Ned's mistake (bad word, I can't think of a better one right now), and Catelyn certainly never let him forget it. And seemingly this is Ned's only mistake, at least on a big level and to Jon's knowledge.
I don't think Ned saw him as a burden or a embodiment of his dishonor, this is Jon's own demon.


I don't see the winter aspect myself, but that lore is not my strongest for now. My brain capacity was maxed out when that came up, so the look was very brief.



I got the picture of Garth Greenhand above in my head reading Robert's monologue in the crypts, and I certainly don't connect him or Robert with autumn/winter. So as the autumn is coming it was natural that he should die at summer's end. Narratively speaking.


In bellbottoms and platform shoes at Woodstock! Damn, that picture will be hard getting out of my head!


They are perfectly normal as we see in other parts of the story, like the Tully girls and LF. So we only see this if we look for it, and carefully read a chapter and make connections to other things we see later. The same thing can be said with the singers here; they are perfectly normal at any feast. Later we are taken back to this spesific feast with Mance, but few put anything in these singers. It could be a nod (and maybe obvious to some on the first read), or misdirection, or seeing to much in things. In this case I think it's a nod, as the premise of Jon's parentage question is finally laid out for all to see.
This is the tricky thing with Martin it seems, as voice said in Are El Jay: when he makes his reveal it's not chocking as in coming from nowhere because the clues are there all the time. As I've not read anything else of him I can't say anything more on this.
Looking at this chapter so closely, I certainly see things I want to see, but I also think many things are presented subtly because of the pivotal thing Jon say on the last page here.


Haha, yes! I didn't mention it in the first post due to time, and forgot to take it up in my second wall-post. I get my tinfoil firmly on my head in these cases, and sometimes I need to stay clear of that.


This could be one of my wild associations! Stark=Ice, so Cersei=icequeen naturally takes me to female Stark=Lyanna.
Personally I think he would struggle with Lyanna too. Sometimes I think he would be happiest with a free company or something. Or maybe done like Daemon Targaryen when he fought over the Stepstones for years. Robert is a warrior, and peace is not his element.


It is! We see that in Bran too, but as he's so young that is more normal. Jon isn't living in a song (or wishing he did) like Sansa, but it was funny seeing this trait they share at this point in time!
And the irony is that Jon's path will take him to the origins for some of those, while Sansa ends up in a harsh reality far removed fron her beloved songs.


I didn't see any of it on my first read, on my second I saw the black cloak. You pointed out the red in there a couple of months ago I think. I'm slow! And not looking for Targaryen clues, and certainly not on Jamie! But thinking about it now it really makes sense.

As for seeing KG here, you know my strong bias and favorite. I see that everywhere it seems...
Jamie doesn't look like a KG here as you say, but we know he is. I don't think Jon is that blinded by the thought of a white cloak, and certainly not after seeing those that came. If Barristan had taken the trip it would be quite another matter methinks! But he do think of joining another sworn brotherhood. IIRC this is the only time we see Jamie with a black cloak. This could be forshadowing something to do with Jamie and/or Jamie+Jon later, I do see that.
Still, the coloring is very interesting! Not only does it remind of Targaryen, but we do have a certain guy in the hall who has a black and red cloak. Tinfoil crackling like crazy! I'm gonna leave this train of thought at this very moment!


True!


There are ways that can work. It's just my own dislike for that trope. Honestly, a part of me hopes that if RLJ Martin wil never tell anyone, including us readers! I can be a bitch. But as this is so integrated in the mystery of what happened during RR that will not come to pass. So the best way to salvage this trope is not to use it!


I lean to it being Catelyn behind Jon's dismissal from all interaction with the royals, claiming it will be an affront to the guests. Not to Robert, as Ned probably wouldn't believe that of his friend with bastards all over, but towards the Lannisters et al. No need to make more tensions than you have to! She has pointed out in her POV that northmen is different that the southron, so she could use this against Ned and Jon to keep the latter away from the royals. I wouldn't be suprised if Ned's upcoming angst is mostly from her, and she uses this as a double edged sword to get Jon out. Not to say Ned is clueless when it comes to bastards in the south, but that Catelyn built it up to a great fat layer.

As everyone knows about Ned's bastard, I don't think he is hidden no matter the parentage. At this time it is clear if he shows any overt signs from the mystery parent(s), like Edric having the Florent ears, and as far as I can tell he is a mini-Ned. Nothing to worry about! The strongest point to this is that Rickon stops when he comes to Jon, so he's not hidden in the back row.


Yep! I don't think he's that worried when it comes to the southrons in general. Just the cold fish. Paired with other thoughts Catelyn has re: bastards and claims later, it is a glaring contrast! Any claim from Edric for the throne she dismisses out of hand because he's a bastard; when it comes to Jon she's verging on paranoia. Something's up!


That would be a hard sell, haha! I'm one of those that doesn't see anything of Robert in Jon's personality, and have a somewhat hard time to see how anyone would.


The watch could be one of the possibilities Ned had thought for him. Or maybe as he thinks himself, a holdfast in the New Gift? Catelyn would still be scared shitless, but I can't see Ned forcing Jon to take the black.
I do think Benjen recognized Jon as a possible warg at least. And see the potential for that in the Watch. Who knows who he has met and talked to beyond the Wall! 
Like you I see it as planting a seed for later, but everything happened too fast.


Well, some things I see everywhere as I said earlier!





I tend to take this statement as the same as the later toughts Tyrion will have re: Jon not having anything of his mother in him. Hard to separate them now! And we don't really see any other very Starkish northmen do we? Therefor Starkcest.
Or some cousin in the Vale, as some of them is said to be horsefaced in a later Sansa chapter, when she talks to Miranda I think it was. New possibility arises!


It is! Good to see a bit of activity in the thread! Seems many are quite busy right now.

To add on to this a little bit, it's also fitting that Robert hands over the power to Ned, who is the King of Winter in all but name. That Ned ends up not in control is forshadowed in his uneasy thoughts on his forfathers, and mirrored in the caos in the books to come.