Post by shymaid on Oct 16, 2017 15:09:35 GMT
I do think it would be hard for Jon to find out he is the son of any other person besides Ned, and that is one of the reasons I think that GRRM might write it that way. As an author, he want's to hurt and shock and surprise his audience. However, most of his audience doesn't see Ned as Jon's bio-father at all, so maybe that would be the shocker. Robert isn't a bad person at all but has made some poor choices, but Jon is certainly disappointed in what he see's and how it is different to both what he feels Ned told him, but also Jon's mental picture of Robert. However, I think it is safe to say that Ned was also a bit disappointed in the Robert that arrived at Winterfell. Another similarity for Ned and Jon!
It's like that cricle if one person can predict the actions of certain person(s) in the future: he sees what they will do and that they will understand that he does, and that they will understand that etc, and ending in a question without any answer. As Ned is set up so strong as Jon's father in Jon's head, the obvious thing to do is make Ned not Jon's father, but as that is anticipated by the fandom etc etc. Hard to say!
Agree on Robert, and as Jon can't get to know him now this picture will endure. Haha, Ned and Jon does seem to react in similar fashion to a lot of things!
I would think that Jon does think that Ned is pretty close to perfect. This conversation between Jon and Aemon that you mention is one of the passages that make me feel like Ned might not be Jon's actual father. But, Jon might look at Ned as almost infallible, and he might truly think that Ned fathering a bastard is the only mistake that Ned ever made. Now, that is Jon's perception of Ned. If Ned turns out to be Jon's father, Ned might never have felt that Jon was a mistake, while at the same time worrying about Jon's future and place in society. I don't know that Jon does look at Eddard as capable of making many human errors, but we know that Ned was no stranger to mistakes and bad choices.
Yes, Ned could definitely have reached sage-like proportions in Jon's mind. Making Jon his big stain on two legs. Just trying to keep my thoughts realistic here, but there is a difference in what you realistically know to be true and your inner most thoughts on a subject/person/etc. Could be a dichotomy like that going on.
The convo with Aemon could alude to Ned not being his father, at least one who makes one question it. And one of those that gives me goosebumps, listening to Aemon! A favorite!
I really don't think Ned would see Jon as a mistake if he is his father! We do see several highstanding Snows in the Stark history, so I'm not sure if he really worried that much; any worry would stem from that red bitch at his side in my mind. (I just can't get past that assosiation from Bran I! )
I may not have explained that well. I don't see any Winter in Robert, but he does have aspects of a Horned God in pagan religion. And the Horned God has aspects that are both winter and summer. This is what set's Ned and Robert with some aspects of the Horned God. It is fitting that Robert died at the end of summer, but Ned also died at the end of summer, not long after his best buddy.
I looked a bit into this, and I both see it and I don't. With Robert and Ned together it's easlier, as one inhabiting one aspect each; Robert having both is where I struggle a bit. And the reversed symbology with the direwolf killed by a stag and the hart killed by a wolf is fitting here. As a full-on image on the story, I'm not so sure. It seems like Martin has taken several mythological stories and images, stired well and served in the story. So I don't really look for a one-to-one correlation with any figure.
Yes, Robert is truly a warrior, and a damn good one. I feel that part of his "penance" or "punishment" for poor choices was that he had to be king, and it wasn't nearly the job he expected or the life he would have loved to live. I have a lot of sympathy that Robert was a king who didn't enjoy the throne he won, and it was a burden for him to wear the crown. It (and probably Cersei) made him miserable.
And brings to mind:
A Feast for Crows - Samwell III
"I shall not see Oldtown again. I know that now." The old man tightened his grip on Sam's arm. "I will be with my brothers soon. Some were bound to me by vows and some by blood, but they were all my brothers. And my father . . . he never thought the throne would pass to him, and yet it did. He used to say that was his punishment for the blow that slew his brother. I pray he found the peace in death that he never knew in life. The septons sing of sweet surcease, of laying down our burdens and voyaging to a far sweet land where we may laugh and love and feast until the end of days . . . but what if there is no land of light and honey, only cold and dark and pain beyond the wall called death?"
"I shall not see Oldtown again. I know that now." The old man tightened his grip on Sam's arm. "I will be with my brothers soon. Some were bound to me by vows and some by blood, but they were all my brothers. And my father . . . he never thought the throne would pass to him, and yet it did. He used to say that was his punishment for the blow that slew his brother. I pray he found the peace in death that he never knew in life. The septons sing of sweet surcease, of laying down our burdens and voyaging to a far sweet land where we may laugh and love and feast until the end of days . . . but what if there is no land of light and honey, only cold and dark and pain beyond the wall called death?"
A punishment for slaying the rightfull heir, mayhaps? And the last bolded part: I hope Robert found peace as well, or a place in Valhall would probably be more to his taste!
It would be interesting if Jaime ended up a member of the Night's Watch, in a black cloak. After Jaime killed Aerys, Ned felt like Jaime should be sent to the wall for his crimes but Robert pardoned him instead. It would be interesting if Jaime ended up right where Ned felt like he belonged, just many years later. I think if Jaime ends up on the wall, it will be his choice, however.
Don't know why I didn't see this as a probable jape from Jamies side sooner! Thumbing his nose at Ned!
And yes, it would be interesting if Jamie ends up there! Probably of his own choice. Realtime thinking here: maybe who ever has the Wall from here on (not knowing Jon's fate or what he might do if he comes back) continue to man the Wall without demanding the oath for the upcoming winter. I could see Jamie do that at least!
I think this would be very smart of GRRM. Frustrating to some degree, but people could debate the parentage for ages to come, and no one is right or wrong. He has promised Jon will find out (I think), but it's possible it might never be revealed to us, and I think I would be okay with that.
If Jon finds out, then we find out. Don't see that being kept off page unless the final sentence in the book is "Jon, let's talk about your mother" or something like that.
I would be fine without knowing, but still would like an answer!
You make a good point about Catelyn, and as she is the Lady of Winterfell, I am sure wishes are obeyed in all aspects, unless Ned directly contradicts her. He certainly could have allowed her wishes about Jon being kept separate from the royal party just to keep the peace of his household and his marriage. An angry wife is a dangerous person! As Robert will find out!
Yep! And Ned is confronted with that angry wife in Cat II, and pays the price...
Something is most definitely up about her reaction and thoughts on Jon!
Actually, I have never considered this before, but it is Jon who mentions that Ned had thought to try to resettle the new gift, and maybe Ned had mentioned this to Jon because he felt like Jon could have a place there, a holdfast. I like that idea!
It is, and Ned might have mentioned it as a possibility. But not going further into it as he wanted winter to come and go before making any plans. He hadn't even secured the land yet either, and Jon was still a few years from starting his own household. No rush, right?
I really like the idea of Jon ending there if the shit hadn't hit the fan!
There are RLJ theories that have Rhaegar actually taking Lyanna to Summerhall, which is the place he seemed to love most in the world. I never was sure of that, but even when I thought that RLJ was probably a good bet, I never thought they camped out at the toj for a year, just drinking wine and having sex and listening to harp music!
Yeah, now that you say it I remember seeing that. Again, I don't pay that much attention to RLJ anymore. It was way back in my mind in my last reply.
Not sure if Summerhall would be the most romantic place to take your stolen paramour, but then he was more of the melacholic type, so maybe. If they were together, I don't think the stayed in toj. A romantic getaway is good and all, but a year long? Don't think so!
I still haven't cracked the Dunk and Egg novels, so most of what I know about Bloodraven is from ASOIAF and the world book. And the internet, which is a dark and dangerous place!
Haha! The internet is dark and full of terrors!
He's put up like a dark, dangerous all-knowing sorcerer. We see this potential when he speaks as Hand; but the way he speaks with Egg is different, warmer and familial and with a sense of humor. A lot like Tywin I guess, but with a warm side as well. I'd really like to see more of him!
I rather laughed hard too, as I typed it, because it is rather silly, but it did strike me as a connection between the two I had never seen before.
Haha, yes! Men can definitely be nestmakers as well! A lovely side to men, that one!
I'd seen the connection, but not thought that much about it, and certainly not in hen terminology!
Well, Ned certainly seems to want to establish a large family, and I would think he would welcome children of Benjen's too. Probably, Benjen wished to join the Nights Watch, but something about the way Cat manipulated Ned into sending Jon to the wall makes me think that she (and Luwin) could have manipulated Ned about Benjen too. There is no doubt that Cat would have worried about any children of Benjen's possibly challenging her own childrens inheritance of Winterfell, just as she does with Jon. I think there are subtle mirrors all over in the text, and I think this is one we see now that can tell us about something that probably happened in the past. I don't think this is the first time Cat and Luwin worked Ned to send someone to the wall.
Oooh, didn't make that connection! It could very much be a repeating scenario, with Benjen wanting to go, Ned not so sure, and Cat & Luwin making their strike! Oh, why did you take her into your huse, Ned?
It's tinfoil for certain, but Theon is lean (another way to describe slender) and dark haired and his eye color isn't mentioned, I don't think. He is handsome and laughs often, and loves the ladies. It is how I picture Brandon Stark. I find the idea a lot less likely than I used to, but I always wondered why Ned decided to hold Theon for Robert, when Robert could have kept Theon in Kingslanding or placed him somewhere else. When it was hinted at that Brandon loved the ladies, I wondered how he could have bagged Theon's mother. Theon does tell us that Theon Stark is his namesake, and I don't know why a Greyjoy would be named after a Stark king. Alannys Harlaw doesn't seem happy in her marriage to Balon Greyjoy and eventually chose to live back with her Harlaw family, and Balon act's like Theon is a Stark and an affront to the Greyjoy line. It's just questionable to me, but I can't find a connection between Brandon and Alannys and my tinfoil about this has dulled up over the years.
Seeing the name Theon Stark always makes me jump, even after several reads! Weird too, as why would an ironborn name their child after a Stark as you say. Hard to say how much it could be to it, little to go on in the text. I like it tough!
Speaking of Ned's time in Kings Landing, I have mentioned elsewhere that I think that Ned made some very powerful things happen the day he sat on the Iron Throne in Robert's place. I really think this might be because the throne (I know it's an inanimate object but) recognized that Ned was the person who claimed the throne from Jaime, who had sat on it and claimed it after he killed Aerys. Ned has some mythological power in this story, whether it's because he is sitting the Iron Throne, or because he is the King of Winter in Winterfell, but there is something otherworldly to his commands. He tells both Luwin and Catelyn "the others take both of you" and by gosh, they both end up dead ... well dead-ish! Ned also curses several people while he is sick and trapped in the black cells, including himself thrice as well as Janos Slynt, Pycelle, and Renly, who end up dead, and also the queen and Kingslayer, Varys, Ser Barristan, and Littlefinger, and all of them should worry. Justice is coming for you by way of Eddard Stark! Or, I like to hope that justice is coming for them. I wonder if his own death was the sacrifice needed to make these curses have power?
Yes, I've seen that. And agree for the most part. He also curses Robert in the godswood in Cat I... In front of the hearttree no less. Maybe not the smartest place to curse your friend and brother-by-another-mother?
Hahaha! Ah, yes! I have been told this over on the Westeros boards several times. Abomination! Such a warm and fuzzy word!
Yeah! Makes you all warm and fuzzy inside for sure!
Let's show up at a convention with a Starkcest infographic on t-shirts! But it might be wise to be escorted by Ser Arthur, Ser Barristan, Ser Jamie and their likes for our safety!