The person most described as stubborn in Jon's pov is Mormont. He seems to keep command by the force of his willpower. Jon in turn has to learn to control his own impulses in order to exert his own influence.
Yes, willpower is needed as a leader and some is more subborn than others. Willfullness as you defined it has to be part of leadership as not to end up fickle, but the opposite would be to just bulldoze over others. Jon doesn't do any of these. I'm not taking that last chapter of his into consideration as I'm unsure of what is really going on there. As for this young Jon we see here, I'm not sure I would say he is very impulsive. He's learning to take his place in the adult world as I said, and part of that is learning to make good decisions. He admits he has trouble following orders, and that is a classic sign of a leader. Impulsiveness is something else in my book, more like Brandon taking off for King's Landing and Robb's initial reactions before thinking again. Jon doesn't do that as far as I can see.
The person most described as stubborn in Jon's pov is Mormont. He seems to keep command by the force of his willpower. Jon in turn has to learn to control his own impulses in order to exert his own influence.
Maybe the age and experience different between Jon and Jeor was the thing that made different styles necessary? Maybe it's all personality? Ultimately, neither worked for Jeor or Jon, as they both ended up victims of their own men/brothers.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
And he was finding that he had a man's thirst, to the raucous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt. He was certain that his companions were more entertaining than the king's offspring.
Here, we find Jon Snow enjoying the same appetites and pleasures that Ned, one chapter earlier, attributed to Robert Baratheon.
Jon is getting drunk, and enjoying tales of bedding women, battle, and hunting. Behaviors that seem not at all Ned-like.
I can't help but wonder if Jon is being his father's son in this moment, whoever he might be. If he is, there are certain characters this behavior seems to mirror...
- Robert Baratheon - Brandon Stark - Jaime Lannister
An interesting trio, no? These are men with hot blood in their veins, rather than water. Lustful. Men who cared less about history and more about swords.
"Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me." "Brandon was nothing like you." "If you say so. You and he were to wed."
(Jaime speaking to Catelyn)
This red-bloodedness led at least two of these men to sire bastards beyond the bounds of marriage. Bastards sired by lust. And, more than zero of them fucked their sisters.
There are other characters who are very popular in X+Y=J discussions, yet would seem quite contrary to Jon's appetites:
- Eddard - Rhaegar - Arthur
Another interesting trio... Men with inflated senses of propriety and civic duty. Men who were cognizant of their place in society and intended their deeds be honored for posterity. These men are not described as being particularly lustful. If one were making a list of potential Jon-fathers least likely to be found in Roz's bed, I'd have to think these guys would be pretty close to the top.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Here, we find Jon Snow enjoying the same appetites and pleasures that Ned, one chapter earlier, attributed to Robert Baratheon.
Jon is getting drunk, and enjoying tales of bedding women, battle, and hunting. Behaviors that seem not at all Ned-like.
While we don't see these behaviors to the extreme in Ned, we don't know that he didn't enjoy them. He might have liked to hunt and drink and fuck as much as the next guy, but his nature kept that it check to some extreme. But this chapter is one of the more obvious links to Robert. The link to Brandon is more subtle, and the fact that Jaime tells us he only has ever slept with Cersei rules him out, though it is still a nice connection to his sister-incest vibe.
I can't help but wonder if Jon is being his father's son in this moment, whoever he might be. If he is, there are certain characters this behavior seems to mirror...
- Robert Baratheon - Brandon Stark - Jaime Lannister
An interesting trio, no? These are men with hot blood in their veins, rather than water. Lustful. Men who cared less about history and more about swords.
I agree that these people do seem to have a few things in common, and are similar in behaviors, we only see Jon drink to excess the one time, he tells us in his own thoughts that Theon was a better hunter than him (to lazy to look it up). From Bran's upcoming chapter, it seems like Jon might be upset about not being able to go on the King's hunt, but he also, according to Bran, seems angry about everything these days. And Jon doesn't strike me as overly lustful. Robert and Brandon were quite the ladies men at this point in their lives, but Jon is not. He is certainly not like Theon Greyjoy. We see Jon in only one sexual relationship, and while he did enjoy it, he was nearly blackmailed into it from the start, and suffered great guilt from it.
So, while I agree that Robert and Brandon do share some things in common, where as Jaime is just more interested in fighting and fooking his sister, we don't see those behaviors taking over Jon's life.
"Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me." "Brandon was nothing like you." "If you say so. You and he were to wed."
(Jaime speaking to Catelyn)
It is interesting that Jaime thinks of himself as more like Brandon than Ned. But Jaime also doesn't like Ned, and feels like Ned disapproves of him and doesn't respect him, which are actually true. But I think that dislike/disapproval from Ned is strangely upsetting to Jaime, and so it makes sense that he would never wish to compare himself with Eddard Stark.
Actually, Jaime is an asshole at times, but he doesn't drink to excess, nor does he live for the hunt, he has been in a more loyal sexual relationship with one woman than most men in Westeros, and he loves to fight more than anything. Jaime thinks he was born to fight, to be a warrior, and maybe in the end, we will find out that is his purpose. Jaime has some quirks that are more Eddard like that Robert (or what we know of Brandon). Jaime and Jon are similar in several ways.
This red-bloodedness led at least two of these men to sire bastards beyond the bounds of marriage. Bastards sired by lust. And, more than zero of them fucked their sisters.
There are other characters who are very popular in X+Y=J discussions, yet would seem quite contrary to Jon's appetites:
- Eddard - Rhaegar - Arthur
Another interesting trio... Men with inflated senses of propriety and civic duty. Men who were cognizant of their place in society and intended their deeds be honored for posterity. These men are not described as being particularly lustful. If one were making a list of potential Jon-fathers least likely to be found in Roz's bed, I'd have to think these guys would be pretty close to the top.
As I stated earlier, Jon isn't particularly lustful. It certainly doesn't drive his actions. His affair with Ygritte was forced at the beginning, although it developed into something more. While Jon is clearly attracted to Val, he doesn't take advantage of her or the situation, and gosh knows, I think she is willing. I think most people feel lust at some point or another. Ned even thinks of lust and why the gods give such lusts that lead to the creation of bastards that look like his own young face. Now, he doesn't admit that it was his lust that sired Jon, but nothing in that thought process clears Ned from the lust that sired Jon. We know very little about Arthur to even guess. Rhaegar we don't know much of either, besides that he seemed to do his duty by his marriage to Elia, and the world thinks he lusted after Lyanna Stark, but there is no proof.
However, I am more inclined to think that Eddard, Arthur and Rhaegar seem more likely to have to be cajoled into a sexual relationship against their very nature in the darkness and then maybe suffer some guilt about said sexual relationship in the bright light of morning.
Jon seems more like this second trio in behavior than he does in the first. And while I agree that it makes the first trio more likely to have created a bastard, it doesn't link them to Jon much in behavior at all. It's certainly an interesting distinction between the two groups, but which group is Jon more like?
Is Jon a product of the group more likely to sire him and not feel an ounce of guilt over the product of their lust, or a product of the group who could have sired him and then might have felt darn guilty about it?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Jon is also slender and on the shorter side, so definitely not a giant. And I agree with your assesment in using looks to tie him to Robert via other bastards. Then we have to use other things, and tied to Jon himself I see very little.
Slender seems to be a First Men trait, Waymar Royce description is so similar to Jon that they could be brothers. Also Gendry and Edric Storm both seem to be in the strong and big description.
As a bastard, he can get away with something his siblings couldn't this night: get drunk! Combined with those tales of battles, bedding and hunt, and finished with liking the bawdier company than the uptight and strickt official company. We have a connection with Robert clearly established!
Probably his first hints of teen rebellion. Doesn't lead to Robert for me.
We haven't seen this so far in the story, but we soon learn that Rhaegar is mostly associated with a high harp, singing a sad song that makes women weep. Could this song be a ballad? Even though it's mentioned so many times during the books, we don't get the text; here Jon can't hear the words. A nice image, no? Clever to put a Rhaegar reference in the background there. Then he draws a link to Robert, and we get the triangle Robert - Lyanna - Rhaegar connected to Jon.
I think its a set up for Sansa eventually marriage to Rhaegar's son.... Aegon.
Short points: Ned and Ashara could have married in front of a hearttree, making him legitimate (and Ned dishonoring Cat in the eyes of gods and men, by the way) Ashara could still be alive, as her body never surfaced. So if this is the case, he could actually get to know his mother! As for Arthur, I really like the shiny tinfoil of him (and maybe the other three KG) lived to see another day, and he may not be just his uncle! And just maybe Jon has already met him!
I do like that idea and I have seen it before. The idea of Ned and Ashara being married in front of the Heart Tree in the Wolf Den is wonderful. Then Hoster Tully dismisses it as not counting since it wasn't under Faith of the Seven tradition and Ned marries Cat to save Robert and the Rebellion.
The argument being that it was actually Ned who put Jon from the table so as not to put him in too close contact with Robert. But I think passage puts that theory to question.
Indeed, its strikes me of not wanting to offend the Lannisters.
Yeah! Until now he's described as smiling, warm and laughing eyes. To me this is a nod to Jon being older than we think. Not just the comment from Luwin, but Benjen's reaction to it. And yes, Benjen knows the truth about Jon I think! Which can be very telling in it self.
You know who else in the story has "laughing eyes" Ashara Dayne.
I used to associate Daeren Targaryen with Jon as well, and felt like Jon would rise fast and fall faster, predicting an early death for Jon (ignoring Jon's stabbing in Dance as we don't know if he is dead or not), but after a reread, I felt like Daeren was more a hint to us of Robb than Jon. The Young Dragon's rise and fall mirror's the Young Wolf's rise and fall! Warrior kings, marching south to conquest, strong leaders and war effort and killed by foul means; Robb murdered under a pledge of guest right at a wedding and Daeren murdered under a banner of peace in Dorne. RIP Robb and Grey Wind! And RIP Daeren!
ALso there are references to him as Aemon the Dragonknight.
Slender seems to be a First Men trait, Waymar Royce description is so similar to Jon that they could be brothers. Also Gendry and Edric Storm both seem to be in the strong and big description.
Yes, that's come up as a possibility. Have to look more into that, a brief check also gives non-First Men people a slender frame. And I've not yet got the full hang of who is First Men and Andals in Westeros.
I think its a set up for Sansa eventually marriage to Rhaegar's son.... Aegon.
Haha, yes! Hadn't seen that possibility, my main thoughts on Sansa is how she will get untangled from that Littlefinger. If the Fair Dragon Prince rescues her, she'd live that fairytale she's always wanted.
I do like that idea and I have seen it before. The idea of Ned and Ashara being married in front of the Heart Tree in the Wolf Den is wonderful. Then Hoster Tully dismisses it as not counting since it wasn't under Faith of the Seven tradition and Ned marries Cat to save Robert and the Rebellion.
'Tis a lovely idea for sure! Alas, mayhaps a bit too romatic for our Martin?
You know who else in the story has "laughing eyes" Ashara Dayne.
LOL! Gods, you actually took me unawares on that one! Maybe I see Ashara as older than she was as we don't have her age, but I never considered that as Benjen was so young. Being attracted to anyone so young is utterly incomprehencible to me!
LOL! Gods, you actually took me unawares on that one! Maybe I see Ashara as older than she was as we don't have her age, but I never considered that as Benjen was so young. Being attracted to anyone so young is utterly incomprehencible to me!
Also do you have the quote for Jon with the laughing eyes bit?
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I think its a set up for Sansa eventually marriage to Rhaegar's son.... Aegon.
I have wondered this too. And how happy for Sansa that she could finally get a handsome prince worthy of all her dreams. I guess after all she has been through, it would be justified, and she could be a queen in the land of summer. Although, I feel like she is really starting to connect to the winter aspect of herself.
ALso there are references to him as Aemon the Dragonknight.
Yes and Maester Aemon is named for Aemon the Dragonknight, so if Jon does turn out to have Targaryen blood, I would be okay with Aemon as a name for him.
I have no idea. Is Mojo a horse lover? Hay burners, that is what my Dad always calls them. But he is happy to take money for providing the hay to burn! Haha!
I have wondered this too. And how happy for Sansa that she could finally get a handsome prince worthy of all her dreams. I guess after all she has been through, it would be justified, and she could be a queen in the land of summer. Although, I feel like she is really starting to connect to the winter aspect of herself.
I'd like to see a good outcome for her! She started out as mini-Cat, but I think she's having an interesting developement. Her chapters isn't my favorite ones, but she's met a life her mother never did and her growth is more readable on a second read in the later books. And she is finding her inner Stark (I don't think she could ever be very Starkish, her nature seems different). I do see her as autumn, not as summer, but that might just be her coloring.
Yes and Maester Aemon is named for Aemon the Dragonknight, so if Jon does turn out to have Targaryen blood, I would be okay with Aemon as a name for him.
I can go with Aemon if rlj, Aegon would just be too silly! But I don't really understand why he has to get a Targ name at all... Jon's fine! And I doubt he would start using a new name after so many years.
I'd like to see a good outcome for her! She started out as mini-Cat, but I think she's having an interesting developement. Her chapters isn't my favorite ones, but she's met a life her mother never did and her growth is more readable on a second read in the later books. And she is finding her inner Stark (I don't think she could ever be very Starkish, her nature seems different). I do see her as autumn, not as summer, but that might just be her coloring.
I personally don't think that Sansa needs her ideal handsome prince to be happy, and she might find she has more luck with a stunted man like Tyrion or a beast like the Hound, though I think Tyrion might turn into a great villain. I actually see this as more probable for her future, as she has a beauty and the beast theme that seems to be fluttering along with her story line. Aegon would be perfect for her, unless the world does find out he is in fact a fake, and she gives up everything to be his wife, and live in poverty and happiness with him. There is also an undertone of a Stark girl marrying a Baratheon boy, and I see this as Sansa and Gendry, as opposed to Edric Storm. I think Sansa's time as a bastard in the vale, getting acquainted with another of Robert's bastards, is important to her end game.
The line from Jaime about Sansa, "She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children," is either foreshadowing or just flat out trolling by GRRM. I am never sure any more! I can't see Sansa happy with Hot Pie, though I bet he could make some impressive lemon cake!
I can go with Aemon if rlj, Aegon would just be too silly! But I don't really understand why he has to get a Targ name at all... Jon's fine! And I doubt he would start using a new name after so many years.
I really can't begin to understand what the show is doing with the Aegon thing, except I think they have combined Jon and Young Griff's storyline. They have gone crazy melding characters, like they are in some genetic splicing laboratory!
If Jon turns out to be a Targaryen, I do think he probably has a different legal name, though I doubt he might ever go by that name. I prefer Jaehaerys myself, if anyone is keeping count. I think Jon would chose to be Jon Snow, as that is his whole persona, and links him both to the Starks and the north.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I personally don't think that Sansa needs her ideal handsome prince to be happy, and she might find she has more luck with a stunted man like Tyrion or a beast like the Hound, though I think Tyrion might turn into a great villain. I actually see this as more probable for her future, as she has a beauty and the beast theme that seems to be fluttering along with her story line. Aegon would be perfect for her, unless the world does find out he is in fact a fake, and she gives up everything to be his wife, and live in poverty and happiness with him. There is also an undertone of a Stark girl marrying a Baratheon boy, and I see this as Sansa and Gendry, as opposed to Edric Storm. I think Sansa's time as a bastard in the vale, getting acquainted with another of Robert's bastards, is important to her end game.
The line from Jaime about Sansa, "She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children," is either foreshadowing or just flat out trolling by GRRM. I am never sure any more! I can't see Sansa happy with Hot Pie, though I bet he could make some impressive lemon cake!
She does have some B&B imagery, yes. I don't think she'd end up back with Tyrion though, with them separated and the marriage unconsumated I'd think an anullment is on the table. Tyrion will probably end up alone, his lonelyness-arc seems to be one that will stick. And if his turn to the dark side continues..? Hard to say if it will, as Martin has said he might end up as the biggest villain. Him potentially getting a new Dance started wouldn't be a plus either if that comes out. I kinda liked the idea of her marrying Aegon, him being fake and her staying with him anyway. If the Starks get back their place, I doubt they would let them live like some commoners. There is also hints of Baratheon as you say. The scene with Gendry and Arya rolling in the barn... If she'd been a bit older who knows what would've happened! I'm not sure what is forshadowing(s) and what is potential eccoes of Lyanna, as I'm sure Martin is pulling our legs in multiple directions. Maybe Hot Pie will end up making her those lemon cakes wherever she ends up, if we'll ever see him again?
I really can't begin to understand what the show is doing with the Aegon thing, except I think they have combined Jon and Young Griff's storyline. They have gone crazy melding characters, like they are in some genetic splicing laboratory!
If Jon turns out to be a Targaryen, I do think he probably has a different legal name, though I doubt he might ever go by that name. I prefer Jaehaerys myself, if anyone is keeping count. I think Jon would chose to be Jon Snow, as that is his whole persona, and links him both to the Starks and the north.
Yeah, they've created a few Frankenfolk... And if they can't make a motley out of them, they go "Let's just burn them!" Jon might have a different legal name, I just don't see the relevance at this stage. Maybe I need to dig through the rest of the mysteries, plots and politics first (and join the RLigion...). Now, if this is the case and he's proclaimed king of Westeros, I think he'd go "Keep your Iron Throne. If you want me to rule, I'll do it from Winterfell. And my name is Jon Snow".