It does! And as stdaga has wondered a few times now, is Bittersteel involved still in a manner similar to Bloodraven? Haven't concluded anything about that yet, or sure how he'd be able to do that, but it is an interesting question!
I have to say having his skull covered in gold and preserved so that so that he can "see" the Golden Company retake Westeros has always made me wonder.
Thanks! Had a feeling I forgot something there. And very true about Brynden! Damn, what I would give to pick that man's brain! Without entering the weirnet myself, of course...
Indeed you would think Bran would have all sorts of questions but nope.
Interesting! That didn't occur to me. With the Seven being the gods he attacked, that would make sense. And so far they haven't made an appearance like the Old Gods and Rhollor has in a way.
I seriously hope that doesn't happen like in the show. If it does it better be for a really good fooking reason not becuase there is a light sprinkling of snow in the North.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I have to say having his skull covered in gold and preserved so that so that he can "see" the Golden Company retake Westeros has always made me wonder.
No idea how.
It is odd! As far as I know, we don't hear of him dabbeling in any sort of occult powers like Brynden, so hard to say what it might be if this is the case.
It also makes me think of Viserys' skull, covered in gold. Interesting parallell!
Indeed you would think Bran would have all sorts of questions but nope.
I know! Or Meera, or Jojen. But the caves seems more interesting for some reason... Had it been me, I'd spend the first six months at least questioning him!
Disgrunteled commoners? To me, that whole movement seems like a reaction to the war in the Riverlands - and rightly so! So in all, not so much religious as the people standing up to their rulers. When it comes to magic and the Faith, the closest thing we've seen is Lancel's dreams. Rhollor and the Old Gods have powerfull representatives that we see. So far the Faith has ritual, songs and images. It will be interesting to see if they will get someone with more than that!
Steam is very hot! That GRRM states this twice in one chapter means we should be paying attention, but I am not sure if that is because the tears are so hot, or that Dany herself is so hot she turns the tears to steam? Is it because Dany has become a "dragon"? What do other people think about this statement?
This is after she wakes from the wake the dragon dream where she is transformed into a dragon. She also has immunity from the flames for a short while. Jon's and Bran's tears don't steam off their cheeks.
"Robert could piss in a cup and men would call it wine, but I offer them pure cold water and they squint in suspicion and mutter to each other about how queer it tastes." Stannis ground his teeth. "If someone said I had magicked myself into a boar to kill Robert, likely they would believe that as well." ACOK-Davos
I never put that together either! Nice!
It's so weird sometimes how things can suddenly jump out at you from the text in spite of multiple reads, or seem to have a different meaning than before. This statement could be a hint from GRRM about Mel/Stannis having some responsibility for Robert's death, or it could be GRRM poking fun at Stannis, or it could be a hint that while Stannis doesn't believe in magic or that anything he does could be responsible for magic, all of the choices we make have ramifications. And he is complicit with Mel's actions. And we will shortly see how responsible Stannis and Mel are for Renly's death. And then Cortnay Penrose!
Stannis seems to indicate that he feels he is innocent of any wrong doing with those deaths, although Renly's haunts him. He gives credit to the red god! But all three deaths are under suspicious means!
Of course, in Robert's case, there was an actual boar, and it was killed, and I think they brought it back to the Red Keep for a feast, so if magic was involved, it was not a shadow boar. Skinchanging makes the most sense, and I don't think Mel can do that. But, maybe she can. She is a big player in trying to make things happen. I am always suspicious of her. And Stannis could not have been king until Robert was dead, and ultimately, Mel's goal seems to be making Stannis "the one true king".
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It's so weird sometimes how things can suddenly jump out at you from the text in spite of multiple reads, or seem to have a different meaning than before.
Guess it's why we love this stuff. After all these years we can still learn more. Gives us something to do between book-decades.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I seriously hope that doesn't happen like in the show. If it does it better be for a really good fooking reason not becuase there is a light sprinkling of snow in the North.
I concur. I was thinking more along the lines of a Sparrow assassin or a violent uprising. Not just walking off. Mayhaps it would be the Drowned God considering Theon and Asha are there.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Haha, me too! But no, I don't think there was any discussion of the non-mention of Bran here. Personally I don't have much to say on that right now.
No mention of the Bran omission in this discussion so far. I guess I never gave it much thought as a clue about parentage, but it certainly could be. I read somewhere that GRRM just forgot to write Bran into the scene, but it does seem rather odd. You forgot? Bran! The kid that will get shoved out a window in a few more chapters. Seems odd!
Does Jon really think his mother is dead? I'll have to reread Jon to be sure, but my headcanon says later thoughts indicate he doesn't know for sure. I'll look into it shortly!
In any case, I hold the possibility for her being alive open! One part of that is the text leading the reader to think so, so I'll go the other way. But mostly it's because I'm not firmly set on who his mother is.
I am sure there are more indications, but in this very chapter Jon thinks "I don't even know who my mother was". Was indicates past tense to me, which hints that Jon thinks she is dead. However, it might just mean, she is figuratively dead to Jon, as she has not been a part of his life.
Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her? GOT-Jon V
This doesn't hint at dead mother so much as just a person who has no bearing on Jon's life. He does talk of her in past tense, which could indicate that he thinks she is dead, but also the thinks that she had no place for him, which hints at Jon thinking she was alive at some point but just didn't want him. He also assumes that Ned left her, which also indicates a past tense, as in left behind, therefore no longer relevant.
"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—" AGOT-Jon VII
Of course, here, Jon does not like Catelyn being referred to as his mother. He makes that very clear to Mormont. It is a weird thing for Mormont to say. After all, Jeor knows Jon is a bastard of Eddard's, so definitely not Catelyn's child.
What I think is great foreshadowing is that Jon indicates he will blame Cat as much as Cersei for Ned's death, if that comes to pass, which is does. I am on the fence about Jon's stabbing and possible death, but either way, I think he has to cross paths with Lady Stoneheart at some point, and Jon will probably be a darker version of himself, and his wrath might be something very dark and dangerous. For Cat/LSH and for Cersei! I also wonder about Sansa, who played a roll in Ned's capture and death. I get she was a child, and she never thought it would end in her fathers death, and I am not sure Sansa has ever even considered a bit of her responsibility for Ned's death, but I don't think it is forgotten. The fact that she was a child might be the only thing that grants her any mercy.
As to Jon's thinking his mother is dead or alive, the text is vague, as usual!
I don't think Stannis had anything to do with Robert's death (for now), the MO seems too far from Melisandre's modus operandi imo. It could be a hint that someone (Brynden) did magick into the boar, while the thought is far fetched to Stannis as the very pragmatic man that he is. I don't see him as the kind who believes in the old skinchanger-stories, or most other stories with paranormal elements. Melisandre managed to prover herself, probably after very hard work, and as said uses a very different style.
It's not her normal method at all, but that is why it's easy not to suspect her for Robert's death. Just like everyone suspected Cersei and the Lannisters for Jon Arryn's death, when it was Lysa with a push from Littlefinger the whole time. I am certainly not stating I think that Stannis or Mel was responsible for Robert's death, but I do think it's possible that they could have been involved.
But as we see no evidence of her being able to skingchange or anything that could explain the boar to my satisfaction, I'm inclined to think this was an event she was able to see correctly, but nothing more.
It's very possible that she did see Robert's death in the flames, and used this knowledge to sway Stannis. That is what I think she did with Balon, Robb and Joffrey. I don't think she "magicked" up their deaths, but seen the deaths, and used them to manipulate Stannis more. Or maybe this was a manipulation of Selyse. Either way, Selyse and Stannis do allow her to burn Alester Florent as a sacrifice. It's possible that is what she wanted the whole time.
Certainly, Mel does see things in her flames. But who sends those images to her? Those are hints from the future, it seems, while the weirnet seems to show images of the present and past.
It does! And as stdaga has wondered a few times now, is Bittersteel involved still in a manner similar to Bloodraven? Haven't concluded anything about that yet, or sure how he'd be able to do that, but it is an interesting question!
I think that it is way older than Bloodraven and Bittersteel. I think they were just pawns in an ancient game. Between two different powers. I am inclined to think that the Drowned God and the Old God's (and maybe the Ice Gods) have connections, while the the Red God, linked to horses and flames, is working against a different power. I'm looking at the Braken and Blackwood sigil's for hint's. It's an old war between those houses. Maybe as old as men being in Westeros.
When it comes to magic and the Faith, the closest thing we've seen is Lancel's dreams. Rhollor and the Old Gods have powerfull representatives that we see. So far the Faith has ritual, songs and images. It will be interesting to see if they will get someone with more than that!
I think there has to be some power in the practice of the Faith of the Seven, as well. The idea of a seven-pointed star, the red comet, the constellations, and the fact that the Andals came to Westeros with a their worship very well established, means it's old, and probably powerful. I have been giving some thought to the Faith and their singing of prayers and hymns. We see a lot of magic worked in this story with song, and I don't think it's coincidence that the Faith has singing as part of it's worship.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Considering that two of the brothers Baratheon have been killed by magical means what is the likelyhood that Stannis is killed by magic?
Robert is killed by the Old Gods, Renly by the Red God, guess that means Stannis will be killed by the Seven... which makes sense considering he burned them on Dragonstone.
Maybe all three Baratheon brothers must die as some sort of sacrifice? Never have given it a thought before.
As to the magic that kills them and who is responsible, it's hard to say. But Stannis not only burned the seven on Dragonstone, he also burned the weirwood and the godswood at Storm's End. He could be pissing off several powerful factions of old magic in the world. I haven't read any of the Winds of Winter chapters, so I am not sure what is going on with Theon and Asha, but he has two Greyjoy's in his power, and they are tied to the Drowned God. If he sacrifices one of them (and not to the sea), is that another power/magic/God that he is thumbing his nose at?
I have to say having his skull covered in gold and preserved so that so that he can "see" the Golden Company retake Westeros has always made me wonder.
No idea how.
It is an interesting ritual. One started by Bittersteel and then followed by other commanders of the Golden Company. Does it have a similar power to the Kings of Winter with their swords and direwolves in the crypts of Winterfell? Will there be some type of show down between these powers/magics? The Golden Company is now in Westeros, and it must be about something more that just helping Aegon (or any person claiming dragon blood) to take the iron throne. Those gold skulls made the journey, too!
And what gave Bittersteel this idea of dipping his skull in gold? Was it a dream?
I seriously hope that doesn't happen like in the show. If it does it better be for a really good fooking reason not becuase there is a light sprinkling of snow in the North.
The burning of Shireen was maybe the post chilling thing I have seen in the show. Awful! I do hope it doesn't go down like that in the books. Currently, Stannis isn't even with Shireen or Mel, so he has no ability to order this event. I do wonder if Selyse might give Mel permission to do this terrible thing. If the King's Blood Mel is looking for is actually Florent blood, or blood of people descended from Garth Greenhand, then Selyse is also a candidate. And I would love to see someone light her on fire. After all, if people think that Stannis is dead, then Shireen is his legal heir. She becomes Queen after Stannis, and it's possible that Mel talks her into giving Selyse to the flames. Of course, this is just wishful thinking because I do no like Selyse at all.
If Stannis does decide to burn Shireen, it's going to have to happen after he has either taken Winterfell, or marched back to the wall. It won't be for the reason that the show gave us!
Steam is very hot! That GRRM states this twice in one chapter means we should be paying attention, but I am not sure if that is because the tears are so hot, or that Dany herself is so hot she turns the tears to steam? Is it because Dany has become a "dragon"? What do other people think about this statement?
This is after she wakes from the wake the dragon dream where she is transformed into a dragon. She also has immunity from the flames for a short while. Jon's and Bran's tears don't steam off their cheeks.
It's definitely different than Jon or Bran, but as DarkSister1001 pointed out, Jon and Dany do have a very similar type of tear/face reaction.
Jon felt hot tears on his cheeks. AGOT-Jon I
Dany felt hot tears on her cheeks. ASOS-Daenerys V
Jon's situation happens right at the start of our story, while Dany's comes much later. After she has had tears turn to steam. After she has embraced her dragon side.
But I also think this must be connected to Bran. Arya also has a hot tear moment. Jon, Dany, Bran, Arya. Four of the five characters that GRRM has mentioned will make it to the end, not necessarily be alive at the conclusion, but make it. Tyrion is the other. Will he at some point cry have a hot tear moment?
And maybe this steam/tear situation with Dany is connected to her working great magic, dark magic, fire magic! And only lasts for a short time. Nice!
It's so weird sometimes how things can suddenly jump out at you from the text in spite of multiple reads, or seem to have a different meaning than before.
Guess it's why we love this stuff. After all these years we can still learn more. Gives us something to do between book-decades.
For sure! I am fascinated by the layers I continue to see in the text, after multiple rereads and times through certain passages. I am sure that is one of the things that keeps me hooked.
And yes, we have plenty of time to reread the text multiple times while we are waiting. I am sure that helps the layers shimmer a bit!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Considering that two of the brothers Baratheon have been killed by magical means what is the likelyhood that Stannis is killed by magic?
Robert is killed by the Old Gods, Renly by the Red God, guess that means Stannis will be killed by the Seven... which makes sense considering he burned them on Dragonstone.
Maybe all three Baratheon brothers must die as some sort of sacrifice? Never have given it a thought before.
As to the magic that kills them and who is responsible, it's hard to say. But Stannis not only burned the seven on Dragonstone, he also burned the weirwood and the godswood at Storm's End. He could be pissing off several powerful factions of old magic in the world. I haven't read any of the Winds of Winter chapters, so I am not sure what is going on with Theon and Asha, but he has two Greyjoy's in his power, and they are tied to the Drowned God. If he sacrifices one of them (and not to the sea), is that another power/magic/God that he is thumbing his nose at?
I was thinking about this a bit more after I posted. Stannis burns the the statues of the seven at Dragonstone, and then he burns the weirwood and godswood at Storm's End. Not only is he messing with several god's, but he is messing with several special castles in Westeros.
Now, Stannis is working on taking Winterfell from the Bolton's, and we know Mel want's the weirwood at Winterfell burned, and Stannis might very well heed her wishes, whether Jon is there or willing or not.
Dragonstone seems to be a place of magic, the castle probably built with some type of Valyrian knowledge. Storm's End is a magical place, rumored to have been built with the help of Bran the Builder. Winterfell is also built by Bran the Builder, at least in myth or Old Nan's tales. Are these places of magic in Westeros some type of target for Melisandre and her red god? And why would they want to destroy the old magic in these places?
The wall is also rumored to have been built with the help of Bran and we are told by several characters that the wall is a place of magic. The other place in Westeros that Bran is rumored to have built, and might be built with magic, is the Hightower in Oldtown.
Is it the places that are a target more than the type of god's the places are tied to? The only place of the five mentioned that is not connected in myth to Bran the Builder is Dragonstone, but it is possible that he has something to do with the building of Dragonstone as well. Dragonstone does have gargoyles, and so does the First Keep at Winterfell, the building that Bran was most likely to have helped raise in person.
Also, these five great places in Westeros (Winterfell, Storm's End, the Hightower, Dragonstone, the Wall-with the Night's Fort the oldest of the known castles on the wall) is making me think of the Five Fort's in Essos. Could these five places in Westeros be connected to the five special fort's in Essos, and what role did each of these places play in the Long Night?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
No mention of the Bran omission in this discussion so far. I guess I never gave it much thought as a clue about parentage, but it certainly could be. I read somewhere that GRRM just forgot to write Bran into the scene, but it does seem rather odd. You forgot? Bran! The kid that will get shoved out a window in a few more chapters. Seems odd!
It is odd! So early in the story one would think Bran was in front in his mind. But so far I haven't really thought about what is true about that statement, or what it might mean if the omission was deliberate.
I am sure there are more indications, but in this very chapter Jon thinks "I don't even know who my mother was". Was indicates past tense to me, which hints that Jon thinks she is dead. However, it might just mean, she is figuratively dead to Jon, as she has not been a part of his life.
The past tense might be as easy has her not being part of his life, but it's hard to say for sure!
It's not her normal method at all, but that is why it's easy not to suspect her for Robert's death. Just like everyone suspected Cersei and the Lannisters for Jon Arryn's death, when it was Lysa with a push from Littlefinger the whole time. I am certainly not stating I think that Stannis or Mel was responsible for Robert's death, but I do think it's possible that they could have been involved.
It's very possible that she did see Robert's death in the flames, and used this knowledge to sway Stannis. That is what I think she did with Balon, Robb and Joffrey. I don't think she "magicked" up their deaths, but seen the deaths, and used them to manipulate Stannis more. Or maybe this was a manipulation of Selyse. Either way, Selyse and Stannis do allow her to burn Alester Florent as a sacrifice. It's possible that is what she wanted the whole time.
While it's possible that they were involved, I'm inclined to think not in this case. Mel relies heavily on tricks and deceptions to manipulate people after seeing things in her flames. She can manipulate shadows, but as you point out the boar was a real one. So it's more probable that she used this vision for her own gains imo.
As for Alester and other sacrifices, it's a bit hard to say. While Mel and Selyse certainly thinks of them as such, Stannis is far from religious. The men he allows to be burned are all condemned to death in any case, so to Stannis the method might be less important. That it can be used in a religious way could be for conveniance sake - the condemned dies and the religious are satisfied. Selyse is crazed enough to follow anything Mel wants (I do have problems understanding this when it comes to her own uncle...). But as you say, Mel might have been after Florent blood all along. But I'm far from convinced of the effect her sacrifice supposedly had.
Certainly, Mel does see things in her flames. But who sends those images to her? Those are hints from the future, it seems, while the weirnet seems to show images of the present and past.
I think her visions are a combination of present and future, with her vision of Brynden and Bran being an example of the former. I have no idea where they come from, but they might not be sent from anyone. I have yet to formulate what they might be, so I'll let that hang for the moment. So far we know that the weirnet show the past and the present, as Bran probably sees Theon at Winterfell in Dance. Hard to say if it's limited to that, as we only have information from Bran who is still learning the art.
I think that it is way older than Bloodraven and Bittersteel. I think they were just pawns in an ancient game. Between two different powers. I am inclined to think that the Drowned God and the Old God's (and maybe the Ice Gods) have connections, while the the Red God, linked to horses and flames, is working against a different power. I'm looking at the Braken and Blackwood sigil's for hint's. It's an old war between those houses. Maybe as old as men being in Westeros.
I think there has to be some power in the practice of the Faith of the Seven, as well. The idea of a seven-pointed star, the red comet, the constellations, and the fact that the Andals came to Westeros with a their worship very well established, means it's old, and probably powerful. I have been giving some thought to the Faith and their singing of prayers and hymns. We see a lot of magic worked in this story with song, and I don't think it's coincidence that the Faith has singing as part of it's worship.
Song might very well have power, as we have several hints of from many religions. My point here is that so far we've seen nothing of the potential power it has, so the singing is simply that. Maybe magic from songs require certain abilities from the singer(s) as well as a certain type of song. With no evidence of magic from songs of the Seven, I'm inclined to think that any magical songs the Faith has is not sung in the regular septs. That would be too unpredictable if one doesn't know who has these gifts or not. What might be going on behind closed doors in the Starry Sept is another question. Or if the Faith has kept the songs with power at all, and/or have anyone with the ability available.
The burning of Shireen was maybe the post chilling thing I have seen in the show. Awful! I do hope it doesn't go down like that in the books. Currently, Stannis isn't even with Shireen or Mel, so he has no ability to order this event. I do wonder if Selyse might give Mel permission to do this terrible thing. If the King's Blood Mel is looking for is actually Florent blood, or blood of people descended from Garth Greenhand, then Selyse is also a candidate. And I would love to see someone light her on fire. After all, if people think that Stannis is dead, then Shireen is his legal heir. She becomes Queen after Stannis, and it's possible that Mel talks her into giving Selyse to the flames. Of course, this is just wishful thinking because I do no like Selyse at all.
If Stannis does decide to burn Shireen, it's going to have to happen after he has either taken Winterfell, or marched back to the wall. It won't be for the reason that the show gave us!
I wonder if Val's oppinion on greyscale, and Shireen with it, will have anything to do with this question! If she's right, Shireen might become ill again. If so, would a burning be part mercy and part sacrifice?
As to the magic that kills them and who is responsible, it's hard to say. But Stannis not only burned the seven on Dragonstone, he also burned the weirwood and the godswood at Storm's End. He could be pissing off several powerful factions of old magic in the world. I haven't read any of the Winds of Winter chapters, so I am not sure what is going on with Theon and Asha, but he has two Greyjoy's in his power, and they are tied to the Drowned God. If he sacrifices one of them (and not to the sea), is that another power/magic/God that he is thumbing his nose at?
I was thinking about this a bit more after I posted. Stannis burns the the statues of the seven at Dragonstone, and then he burns the weirwood and godswood at Storm's End. Not only is he messing with several god's, but he is messing with several special castles in Westeros.
Now, Stannis is working on taking Winterfell from the Bolton's, and we know Mel want's the weirwood at Winterfell burned, and Stannis might very well heed her wishes, whether Jon is there or willing or not.
Dragonstone seems to be a place of magic, the castle probably built with some type of Valyrian knowledge. Storm's End is a magical place, rumored to have been built with the help of Bran the Builder. Winterfell is also built by Bran the Builder, at least in myth or Old Nan's tales. Are these places of magic in Westeros some type of target for Melisandre and her red god? And why would they want to destroy the old magic in these places?
The wall is also rumored to have been built with the help of Bran and we are told by several characters that the wall is a place of magic. The other place in Westeros that Bran is rumored to have built, and might be built with magic, is the Hightower in Oldtown.
Is it the places that are a target more than the type of god's the places are tied to? The only place of the five mentioned that is not connected in myth to Bran the Builder is Dragonstone, but it is possible that he has something to do with the building of Dragonstone as well. Dragonstone does have gargoyles, and so does the First Keep at Winterfell, the building that Bran was most likely to have helped raise in person.
Also, these five great places in Westeros (Winterfell, Storm's End, the Hightower, Dragonstone, the Wall-with the Night's Fort the oldest of the known castles on the wall) is making me think of the Five Fort's in Essos. Could these five places in Westeros be connected to the five special fort's in Essos, and what role did each of these places play in the Long Night?
Interesting thoughts! One place I would include here is Pyke and it's Sea Tower, which has several things in common with both Winterfell and Storm's End and has several anomalies in termes of architecture. If this fits in this mix, I'm inclined to swap this with the Night's Fort maybe? If we are to connect this with the Five Fort's in Essos that is. The Night's Fort seems to stand in it's own category in my mind, with it's connection with the Wall. The Drowned God is in play with Asha and Theon in Stannis' hands, so the ancient castle on Pyke could have some significance as well.
Guess it's why we love this stuff. After all these years we can still learn more. Gives us something to do between book-decades.
Haha, maybe the reason he makes this story so intricate is to give himself more time to write?
I have to imagine that this level of detail, as well as the intricate layers, are part of the reason is is taking him so long to complete his books. It's like a gift to the fans, as well as a curse!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
While it's possible that they were involved, I'm inclined to think not in this case. Mel relies heavily on tricks and deceptions to manipulate people after seeing things in her flames. She can manipulate shadows, but as you point out the boar was a real one. So it's more probable that she used this vision for her own gains imo.
As for Alester and other sacrifices, it's a bit hard to say. While Mel and Selyse certainly thinks of them as such, Stannis is far from religious. The men he allows to be burned are all condemned to death in any case, so to Stannis the method might be less important. That it can be used in a religious way could be for conveniance sake - the condemned dies and the religious are satisfied. Selyse is crazed enough to follow anything Mel wants (I do have problems understanding this when it comes to her own uncle...). But as you say, Mel might have been after Florent blood all along. But I'm far from convinced of the effect her sacrifice supposedly had.
I guess I look at the idea of sacrifice in this way: if I am willing to consider that blood is needed to feed the weirwoods, then there is no reason to think that blood, by way of fire, or by way of drowning in water, is less powerful than blood feeding the weirnets. I could be completely wrong about that, however. I also recognize that the weirwoods are a physical entity, while fire and water, or even air, fall into more into the categoy of the elements, so it might not work the same way.
I am unsure about the Florent blood, but that feels more "right" to me than the idea of the vagueness of "kingsblood" which people think is Targaryen blood, or Stark blood, which is what I thought for a long time. It's hard to say with Edric Storm, as he carries a very special combination of blood, Targaryen dragon blood, Baratheon storm king blood, and Florent first high king of Westeros blood. Which is special, or more important that the others? Mel wanted Edric Storm, and Davos fears that she mean to burn him, he even discusses this with Stannis on a couple occasions. Mel didn't see Davos helping Edric escape, nor did she seem aware of the situation at the wall when Davos alert's them to the message from the wall asking for help. I am not sure what she truly see's in her flames or who sends her the images, but they failed her this time, and Edric Storm escaped her grasp.
I am guessing that Alester Florents blood sacrifice is what gave them strong winds that carried Stannis' fleet north to the wall. It also might have been a huge coincidence that she is taking credit for. It is also possible that Mel never gave Alester Florent to the fires, and it was a glamour, just like we later see with Mance/Rattleshirt. If that is the case, what does she need Alester Florent for? Melisandre is a character I have a hard time grasping or understanding her power, her motivation or her end game.
I think her visions are a combination of present and future, with her vision of Brynden and Bran being an example of the former. I have no idea where they come from, but they might not be sent from anyone. I have yet to formulate what they might be, so I'll let that hang for the moment.
Mel seems to see things. Moquorro seems to see things in his flames as well. The images have to come from somewhere. Is it possible they are all tapping into the same source, which is the weirnet, only doing it with different mediums? Is it one great power that everyone who worships a certain religion takes a bit of credit for?
I wonder if Val's oppinion on greyscale, and Shireen with it, will have anything to do with this question! If she's right, Shireen might become ill again. If so, would a burning be part mercy and part sacrifice?
Shireen's greyscale and Val's reaction to it is very intriguing. What does it mean? This passage caught my attention recently.
"Lord of Light, defend us. The night is dark and full of terrors." Queen Selyse led the responses, her pinched face full of fervor. King Stannis stood beside her, jaw clenched hard, the points of his red-gold crown shimmering whenever he moved his head. He is with them, but not of them, Davos thought. Princess Shireen was between them, the mottled grey patches on her face and neck almost black in the firelight. ASOS-Davos VI
While we don't get a hint of how the firelight effects the color of Selyse or Stannis's skin, we are told that Shireen's greyscale is "black in the firelight". Black is associated with night, and that is something that Mel seems to fear. Does Val fear it too? Even though Mel and Val seem to be almost opposites in imagery. And what is it about the greyscale? Does it drink the light, almost like a black hole?
What happens when you set fire to grey scale and the blood of the dragon. The greyscale is likend to stone, and scales make me think of dragon or snake skin. Could waking a dragon from stone have to do with burning someone with greyscale? Is Shireen a dragon like Dany is a dragon?
One place I would include here is Pyke and it's Sea Tower, which has several things in common with both Winterfell and Storm's End and has several anomalies in termes of architecture. If this fits in this mix, I'm inclined to swap this with the Night's Fort maybe? If we are to connect this with the Five Fort's in Essos that is. The Night's Fort seems to stand in it's own category in my mind, with it's connection with the Wall. The Drowned God is in play with Asha and Theon in Stannis' hands, so the ancient castle on Pyke could have some significance as well.
I am not sure about a place on the Iron Islands, but mostly because I am looking at places that Brandon the Builder has hinted at being involved in. While he is not tied directly to the Night Fort, he is tied to the building of the wall. Dragonstone is the outlier in my group, I just used it because of Stannis, Mel and the burning of the seven there.
However, as far as the Greyjoy's go, they claim to descend from the Grey King, but the Grey King had his seat on the Island of Old Wyk, on Nagga's hill. That seems like a place of old power. The Greyjoy's as a family have possestion of the Seastone chair, which is made of oily black stone that once reportedly sat in the Grey King's hall on Old Wyk. This chair sit's in the Great Keep at Pyke. Still, it is Old Wyk that the Iron Born seem to hold sacred and it's where they have their kingsmoot's, so it seem more powerful than the island of Pyke. But the Seastone Chair is supposed to be very powerful, and it is said to be made of the same substance as the base of the High Tower in Oldtown.
As for the Sea Tower, I had to look at the wiki but it is the oldest tower at Pyke, and is noted for having soot marks from night fires, which I do think is very interesting. Now, that could be just a fancy Light House, but it hints at the fire in the High Tower in Oldtown. I will have to think on this idea some more. I have no idea how old these towers at Pyke might be, but it's possible there are thousands of years old. The sea must take some toll on how long they stand for, however.
The Greyjoy's of Pyke have only been in power in the Iron Islands since Aegon's conquest, even though they claim descent from the Grey King. They were elected by their fellow Iron Born, which does hint at old power and strength.
I can't let go of the idea of the Nightfort being powerful. It has a weirwood door that opens into a large mouth when a Night's Watch member says his vows. That weirwood mouth might be connected to the largest weirwood in Westeros. That seems to be some type of strong magic, and the wierwood links it to the old gods. Could the weirwood at Whitetree be a smaller version of what we see at the Nightfort. Jon thinks the weirwood at Whitetree village is the largest weirwood he has ever seen and the mouth is large enough to swallow a sheep, and a canopy so large it covers the entire village. It is possible that the Nightfort was the most northern of the fortresses built during or after the Long Night, and that it was only one of a series of forts, which later were joined together by a wall of ice. What if the Nightfort was built around or into a gigantic weirwood, with it's mouth being used as a tunnel? If Brandon the Builder built the Nightfort, and the rest of the wall eventually sprung from the Nightfort, then Bran might be given credit for building the wall, when he possibly just built the first important part of it. That is a huge amount of speculation, however, so it can be taken with a glimmer of tinfoil and a large sprinkling of salt.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I am unsure about the Florent blood, but that feels more "right" to me than the idea of the vagueness of "kingsblood" which people think is Targaryen blood, or Stark blood, which is what I thought for a long time. It's hard to say with Edric Storm, as he carries a very special combination of blood, Targaryen dragon blood, Baratheon storm king blood, and Florent first high king of Westeros blood. Which is special, or more important that the others? Mel wanted Edric Storm, and Davos fears that she mean to burn him, he even discusses this with Stannis on a couple occasions. Mel didn't see Davos helping Edric escape, nor did she seem aware of the situation at the wall when Davos alert's them to the message from the wall asking for help. I am not sure what she truly see's in her flames or who sends her the images, but they failed her this time, and Edric Storm escaped her grasp.
With all the kings that have come and gone over the millennia, it's hard to say which blood is to be considered. It it is one spesific bloodline, I'm inclined to think it's something that goes way back and as such might flow in many family veins. As the Greenhand blood, which many and more families claim decent from. With Edric I think it's hard to say, as we only get Davos' POV that Mel wanted to burn him. I think it's very possible she let Edric get away, and was aware of Davos' plans all along. I suspect he's quite easy to read, our dear Davos, with no special power needed.
I am guessing that Alester Florents blood sacrifice is what gave them strong winds that carried Stannis' fleet north to the wall. It also might have been a huge coincidence that she is taking credit for. It is also possible that Mel never gave Alester Florent to the fires, and it was a glamour, just like we later see with Mance/Rattleshirt. If that is the case, what does she need Alester Florent for? Melisandre is a character I have a hard time grasping or understanding her power, her motivation or her end game.
The glamour-thought here is interesting! Hadn't considered it! But possible, as we have precedence. If she did, is it necessary for her to need him for something more? She did succed in using that burning to her advantage already and that might be all she wanted. Favourable winds is too easy to claim responsibility for, so I can't take that as her doing without more to go on. If their ships had been sitting still for some time in the ocean, then the winds started shortly after a burning of hers it would be a different matter. Her motives and end-game is very hard to grasp!
Mel seems to see things. Moquorro seems to see things in his flames as well. The images have to come from somewhere. Is it possible they are all tapping into the same source, which is the weirnet, only doing it with different mediums? Is it one great power that everyone who worships a certain religion takes a bit of credit for?
They do seem to see things. And the visions coming from somewhere, doesn't have to mean someone. If all sides are tapping into the same source with different methods is hard to say. Could be, but so is different sources, like the different elements or something like that. They are in an eternal "struggle" and could be mirrored in different religions.
Shireen's greyscale and Val's reaction to it is very intriguing. What does it mean? This passage caught my attention recently.
"Lord of Light, defend us. The night is dark and full of terrors." Queen Selyse led the responses, her pinched face full of fervor. King Stannis stood beside her, jaw clenched hard, the points of his red-gold crown shimmering whenever he moved his head. He is with them, but not of them, Davos thought. Princess Shireen was between them, the mottled grey patches on her face and neck almost black in the firelight. ASOS-Davos VI
While we don't get a hint of how the firelight effects the color of Selyse or Stannis's skin, we are told that Shireen's greyscale is "black in the firelight". Black is associated with night, and that is something that Mel seems to fear. Does Val fear it too? Even though Mel and Val seem to be almost opposites in imagery. And what is it about the greyscale? Does it drink the light, almost like a black hole?
What happens when you set fire to grey scale and the blood of the dragon. The greyscale is likend to stone, and scales make me think of dragon or snake skin. Could waking a dragon from stone have to do with burning someone with greyscale? Is Shireen a dragon like Dany is a dragon?
I need to reread that before I can say much, this was my second full reread of Dance so many things stood out. For now I will say that burning a randome person with greyscale probably wouldn't be waking a dragon from stone. If someone were to believe that *cough Selyse and Mel cough*, it would be Shireen's Targaryen blood from her great grandmother that is in play. On the other hand, as the legend behind greyscale is that it was a weapon against the dragonlords wouldn't it be antithetical to waking a dragon?
I am not sure about a place on the Iron Islands, but mostly because I am looking at places that Brandon the Builder has hinted at being involved in. While he is not tied directly to the Night Fort, he is tied to the building of the wall. Dragonstone is the outlier in my group, I just used it because of Stannis, Mel and the burning of the seven there.
I don't have a full grasp on the ancient architecture in Westeros yet, but I do see a possible connection between Pyke, Winterfell, Moat Cailin, Hightower, Storm's End and Dragonstone. The tie might not be BtB, but I think it's something there. Like you I see Dragonstone as an outlier in my group with the gargoyles being the tie. If BtB is the tie in what Stannis and Mel is doing, they haven't expressed any interest in the Hightower yet, so I don't know... They could be burning in his footsteps, but I think it's hard to say. It could as easily be the power in these places that draws them. If Martin uses powerplaces in the same way it has been used in our ancient world.
I can't let go of the idea of the Nightfort being powerful. It has a weirwood door that opens into a large mouth when a Night's Watch member says his vows. That weirwood mouth might be connected to the largest weirwood in Westeros. That seems to be some type of strong magic, and the wierwood links it to the old gods. Could the weirwood at Whitetree be a smaller version of what we see at the Nightfort. Jon thinks the weirwood at Whitetree village is the largest weirwood he has ever seen and the mouth is large enough to swallow a sheep, and a canopy so large it covers the entire village. It is possible that the Nightfort was the most northern of the fortresses built during or after the Long Night, and that it was only one of a series of forts, which later were joined together by a wall of ice. What if the Nightfort was built around or into a gigantic weirwood, with it's mouth being used as a tunnel? If Brandon the Builder built the Nightfort, and the rest of the wall eventually sprung from the Nightfort, then Bran might be given credit for building the wall, when he possibly just built the first important part of it. That is a huge amount of speculation, however, so it can be taken with a glimmer of tinfoil and a large sprinkling of salt.
The Night's Fort is powerfull for sure. But I haven't thought that much about it yet, you're a bit ahead of me!