stdaga is it possible Bael is more about Harrenhall?
Aerys is the Lord Stark that offends Tywin by calling him a servant and taking Jaime
Tywin helps Rhaegar organize the Tourney while remaining unseen
Rhaegar the son tries to usurp his father
A lady commits suicide
A son kills his father unknowingly??
Not direct parallels but there are similarities.
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lumbergh hell yeah I do think Mance is Arthur! And Jonathan deserves his ass to he kicked I used to think Qhorin was Oswell Whent and I still like the idea but I am also interested in Kettleblacks being Whents + Osney the Thrice Hanged being related to them too since Os- names seem to be found more in Riverlands as there is a Septon Os- that Catelyn talks about.
Aerys is the Lord Stark that offends Tywin by calling him a servant and taking Jaime
Tywin helps Rhaegar organize the Tourney while remaining unseen
Rhaegar the son tries to usurp his father
A lady commits suicide
A son kills his father unknowingly??
Not direct parallels but there are similarities.
I suppose this could be possible, although it is not something I have ever thought about before. Pretty much all we know about the Bael Tale and Harrenhal are told to us by people who didn't even witness the events, but have only been told stories of the events, and stories often fit an agenda of the tale teller, so I am not sure how much we can rely on either of these stories!
My gut instinct is that the Bael Tale was something that Mance "sang" for the wildlings in an attempt to unite them. What better way to unite people who might have a fear of the lands south of the wall and the Stark who holds them than to convince those people that they all share blood? I think it has a political slant. Mance's interest in the Stark crypts seems to mirror something that Bael in the story might have also been searching for. Mance's "song" has some agenda! Now, Bael the Bard did exist in some form of reality, since Jon knows who he is, and the invasion he led makes the World Book, but I am not at all sold on the details that we get in Ygritte's story. She even says it's a tale told with "a bard's truth" which is different than other peoples!
I think the same needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to Meera's tale of Harrenhal. But I am very much in a doubting stage at my current path through the text.
If you have something more on this idea on the possibility of these stories being parallels, I would be interested in the link!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Aerys is the Lord Stark that offends Tywin by calling him a servant and taking Jaime
Tywin helps Rhaegar organize the Tourney while remaining unseen
Rhaegar the son tries to usurp his father
A lady commits suicide
A son kills his father unknowingly??
Not direct parallels but there are similarities.
I suppose this could be possible, although it is not something I have ever thought about before. Pretty much all we know about the Bael Tale and Harrenhal are told to us by people who didn't even witness the events, but have only been told stories of the events, and stories often fit an agenda of the tale teller, so I am not sure how much we can rely on either of these stories!
My gut instinct is that the Bael Tale was something that Mance "sang" for the wildlings in an attempt to unite them. What better way to unite people who might have a fear of the lands south of the wall and the Stark who holds them than to convince those people that they all share blood? I think it has a political slant. Mance's interest in the Stark crypts seems to mirror something that Bael in the story might have also been searching for. Mance's "song" has some agenda! Now, Bael the Bard did exist in some form of reality, since Jon knows who he is, and the invasion he led makes the World Book, but I am not at all sold on the details that we get in Ygritte's story. She even says it's a tale told with "a bard's truth" which is different than other peoples!
I think the same needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to Meera's tale of Harrenhal. But I am very much in a doubting stage at my current path through the text.
If you have something more on this idea on the possibility of these stories being parallels, I would be interested in the link!
Honestly just speculation :/
If you strip the love story of Bael and Stark Maid from the song you are left with a
Proud Lord offending the King Beyond the Wall - a Paranoid Aerys calls Tywin a servant and not caring about the song of Castamere
King Beyond the Wall sneaking in Lord's castle in secret identity - Tywin and Lannisters didn't attend Harrenhall yet it was Tywin who probably paid for the tourney
The Bard King steals the Stark Maiden - other than Rhaegar crowning Lyanna we have no proof of them interacting and actually seen together. But we know three squiers Lyanna beats are all connected to Tywin. Freys › betrayed Starks at Red Wedding, Genna is married to a Frey Haith › sworn to House Frey Blount › Sansa says it's Blount who beats her the hardest and even after letting Tyrion steal Tommen, Tywin still allows him to be a KG No Lyanna = Cersei becomes Queen
Stark maiden in love with Bard King - we know from Ygritte in Bael's songs every women loved him so it is possible there wasn't a love story what so ever
Stark Lady commits suicide - there is only Ashara Dayne who committed suicide yet it isn't said her Denise is connected to kinslaying
Son kills father unknowingly - Jaime slaying Aerys?
Interesting that in original song Ygritte tells Jon, Lord Stark doesn't lose anything and instead gains a male heir thanks to Bael
So it is more appropriate to say the two events reminds me each other rather than being direct parallels
If you strip the love story of Bael and Stark Maid from the song you are left with a
Proud Lord offending the King Beyond the Wall - a Paranoid Aerys calls Tywin a servant and not caring about the song of Castamere
King Beyond the Wall sneaking in Lord's castle in secret identity - Tywin and Lannisters didn't attend Harrenhall yet it was Tywin who probably paid for the tourney
The Bard King steals the Stark Maiden - other than Rhaegar crowning Lyanna we have no proof of them interacting and actually seen together. But we know three squiers Lyanna beats are all connected to Tywin. Freys › betrayed Starks at Red Wedding, Genna is married to a Frey Haith › sworn to House Frey Blount › Sansa says it's Blount who beats her the hardest and even after letting Tyrion steal Tommen, Tywin still allows him to be a KG No Lyanna = Cersei becomes Queen
Stark maiden in love with Bard King - we know from Ygritte in Bael's songs every women loved him so it is possible there wasn't a love story what so ever
Stark Lady commits suicide - there is only Ashara Dayne who committed suicide yet it isn't said her Denise is connected to kinslaying
Son kills father unknowingly - Jaime slaying Aerys?
Interesting that in original song Ygritte tells Jon, Lord Stark doesn't lose anything and instead gains a male heir thanks to Bael
So it is more appropriate to say the two events reminds me each other rather than being direct parallels
Well, a few bit's of text and some speculation are where most theories start! I think you have a good start on an interesting theory!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
If you strip the love story of Bael and Stark Maid from the song you are left with a
Proud Lord offending the King Beyond the Wall - a Paranoid Aerys calls Tywin a servant and not caring about the song of Castamere
King Beyond the Wall sneaking in Lord's castle in secret identity - Tywin and Lannisters didn't attend Harrenhall yet it was Tywin who probably paid for the tourney
The Bard King steals the Stark Maiden - other than Rhaegar crowning Lyanna we have no proof of them interacting and actually seen together. But we know three squiers Lyanna beats are all connected to Tywin. Freys › betrayed Starks at Red Wedding, Genna is married to a Frey Haith › sworn to House Frey Blount › Sansa says it's Blount who beats her the hardest and even after letting Tyrion steal Tommen, Tywin still allows him to be a KG No Lyanna = Cersei becomes Queen
Stark maiden in love with Bard King - we know from Ygritte in Bael's songs every women loved him so it is possible there wasn't a love story what so ever
Stark Lady commits suicide - there is only Ashara Dayne who committed suicide yet it isn't said her Denise is connected to kinslaying
Son kills father unknowingly - Jaime slaying Aerys?
Interesting that in original song Ygritte tells Jon, Lord Stark doesn't lose anything and instead gains a male heir thanks to Bael
So it is more appropriate to say the two events reminds me each other rather than being direct parallels
Well, a few bit's of text and some speculation are where most theories start! I think you have a good start on an interesting theory!
Thank you! I do not know where I am heading because RL isn't a subject I am interested in Empire of Dawn and Blackfyres - I also search about Faceless Men and Braavos nowadays
Thank you! I do not know where I am heading because RL isn't a subject I am interested in Empire of Dawn and Blackfyres - I also search about Faceless Men and Braavos nowadays
Well, perhaps your other interests actually benefit your theory, since you are not so emotionally invested in R+L+?, you can see things in a more open manner, and at the same time tie Bael and Harrenhal together. I have long wondered if Mance isn't the key to both stories. That he serves as a bard in our story, he is tied to the Stark crypts, and he might very well have been the black brother who was a recruiter at Harrenhal! Jon gives us Dareon, a singer, who he has take the place of Yoren as a Nights' Watch recruiter who ends up deserting for his interests in Braavos, while Mance seems to have deserted for his interests north of the Wall! They certainly echo each other in some way!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Thank you! I do not know where I am heading because RL isn't a subject I am interested in Empire of Dawn and Blackfyres - I also search about Faceless Men and Braavos nowadays
Well, perhaps your other interests actually benefit your theory, since you are not so emotionally invested in R+L+?, you can see things in a more open manner, and at the same time tie Bael and Harrenhal together. I have long wondered if Mance isn't the key to both stories. That he serves as a bard in our story, he is tied to the Stark crypts, and he might very well have been the black brother who was a recruiter at Harrenhal! Jon gives us Dareon, a singer, who he has take the place of Yoren as a Nights' Watch recruiter who ends up deserting for his interests in Braavos, while Mance seems to have deserted for his interests north of the Wall! They certainly echo each other in some way!
I do think Mance could be at Harrenhall but I don't know how important this information is. But since Mance has similarities to Rhaegar (no I don't believe in Mance=Rhaegar) I wonder if Arya's interaction with Dareon and Sansa's Marillion show us how Lyanna might react to Rhaegar? Arya kills Dareon while Sansa frames Marillion for a crime he didn't commit. There could be a way Lyanna essentially doomed Rhaegar.
I do think Mance could be at Harrenhall but I don't know how important this information is. But since Mance has similarities to Rhaegar (no I don't believe in Mance=Rhaegar) I wonder if Arya's interaction with Dareon and Sansa's Marillion show us how Lyanna might react to Rhaegar? Arya kills Dareon while Sansa frames Marillion for a crime he didn't commit. There could be a way Lyanna essentially doomed Rhaegar.
I do like the idea behind the bolded idea! Honestly, I think that is more in line with what GRRM is writing than a lovers eloping in hope of creating a child who will save the world.
An interesting tie to both Sansa and Arya and their doomed singers is while they both recognize the singer is attractive, they have no love for the individual men. And never did! Marillion tried to rape Sansa while Dareon showed no love to Arya, in her Cat of the Canal's guise!
One difference is that is seems like Arya makes her move on Dareon on her own, almost acting as a surrogate Lord of Winterfell/Lord Commander, while Sansa is coerced into her lies about Marillion, by Littlefinger. Both singers seem to end up dead, but there is a different path. I would expect some twist in Lyanna's story, if this theme will be repeated between her are Rhaegar.
I do think that if Mance was at Harrenhal, it will play out in some important way between what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't see how it couldn't, I guess. Even if it's indirect, (the connection might be through Benjen, who possibly decided he wanted to join the Night's Watch at this time) I don't think GRRM would put Mance at Harrenhal without some purpose!
And if these themes turn out to be similar, then I think that we will find a more truthful version of the Bael Tale might have the Stark maid being the doom of Bael, not a woman who loved him (and probably her child was never his)! Ygritte even insinuates that the perhaps that part of her tale is falsified, the part about all the women loving Bael in the tales. I think she learned her version of that tale from Mance, but I am not sure what his purpose is at this point. He has an interest in the crypts, that seems certain. Did Bael? Did Rhaegar?
Bard's and singers don't frequent Winterfell in general idea, however, and I am beginning to suspect it has much to do with the idea of the females of Winterfell and not some decree by the Lord's of Winterfell, as I had previously speculated! It also makes me a little suspicious about the old singer that Sansa remembers coming to Winterfell years ago. Did he have some other goal or purpose by being there? Stark's seem to respond to the song of wolves howling, not bards singing!
ETA: In response to "Sansa frames Marillion for a crime he didn't commit", while Marillion wasn't guilty of the murder of Lysa, he certainly was no hero. He was opportunistic, sly, lying and an attempted rapist, so that might be another way to look at Prince Silverstring. He also had a lovely voice, hauntingly so, and the ability to make up his own songs, so of which entertained people (Lysa) while some people did not love those songs (most of Lysa's court).
One thing we do see in Marillion as a man, is he is no fighter, as demonstrated by his time with Tyrion and Cat while journeying to the Vale. Rhaegar was at least reported to be a decent jouster and practiced at sword play, so I am not sure how that concept of warrior vs bard works for each of these characters. If Rhaegar and Robert truly battled at the Trident for a significant duel, then Rhaegar did a pretty good job of holding his own, and perhaps was perhaps even one swing of the sword away from victory. But, I am not sure how to interpret the idea of Rhaegar the warrior against Rhaegar the bard, as we might have a couple different archetypes being weaved together.
Last Edit: Jan 18, 2019 15:56:39 GMT by stdaga: ETA: Because I just can't stop!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , i have been thinking Lord Dayne , the older brother of Arthur , could be mance mtootles ,
I have wondered this myself. It would make sense of some of the odd "we don't kneel" connections between's Mance's wildlings and Dorne. Also the connection between Mance and Qorgyle, who was from Dorne. The oldest Dayne certainly seems to be poised as a bit of a mystery in the story, and I think he could be important. I think he would be Edric's father, if I am not mistaken, although Edric's age seems to young to me.
For this to work, I think this Elder Dayne would have needed to take over Mance Rayder's life in some way. Since Mance has a history that preexists a time when Elder Dayne could have been at the wall, since Mance was supposedly raised at the wall, then I think the switch happened later, perhaps even around the time Robert's Rebellion ended. But by the time that Mance came to Winterfell with Qorgyle, when Robb and Jon were young, then I lean to Mance/Elder Dayne coming to Winterfell for some purpose. And I think it's Dawn. I would imagine any son of House Dayne would practice to become more than proficient with a greatsword. Arthur may have been gifted with the right to wield Dawn, but his older brother might have been very good with a greatsword as well, just not quite as good as Arthur. Mance is certainly good with a greatsword!
I have a strong doubt that Dawn is actually at Starfell, or if it is, then it is in pieces, and not all of the pieces are together. My gut instinct from my first read of Game was that Dawn was actually in the crypts. I have let that go a little over the years, but if Mance is Elder Dayne, then the Dawn sword makes the most sense for what Mance is seeking in the crypts (or if Dawn is broken, then perhaps the hilt is in the crypts). Mance as Abel is currently on his third trip (that we know of) to Winterfell in approximately ten years. That seems excessive, considering Mance had to take time to unite the wildling tribes, which could not have been easy and probably took some time and dedication. Something in Winterfell is very important to Mance's plan, and the story is seeming to tell us it's in the crypts.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga, i have been thinking Lord Dayne , the older brother of Arthur , could be mance mtootles,
Really? I was thinking Arthur is Mance - though black cloak with three red strings seems to be reverted colors of Qorgyle's and Mance could be bastard of Lord Commander Qorgyle in truth? Still Mance's unusual talent with great sword and the fact he loves the sound screams Arthur. I think like Jaime who had a problem with too many vows Arthur chose his vows as SotM at the end.
stdaga you really believe in crypts theory? I am really overprotective of Dawn and House Dayne for me Dawn is protected by Office of SotM and waits for Mance/Edric Dayne to claim it - I can only wait to see how Darkstar will turn out in TWOW to see if he is worthy of Dawn or not but no other male has a claim to Dawn imo.
Really? I was thinking Arthur is Mance - though black cloak with three red strings seems to be reverted colors of Qorgyle's and Mance could be bastard of Lord Commander Qorgyle in truth? Still Mance's unusual talent with great sword and the fact he loves the sound screams Arthur. I think like Jaime who had a problem with too many vows Arthur chose his vows as SotM at the end.
This would be interesting if Arthur did chose being SotM over being a kingsguard or a knight or Rhaegar's loyal companion, but how does becoming Mance Rayder support that choice? And if so, why doesn't the SotM have Dawn? Why give it up to Eddard, unless Arthur lost to Ned, Ned took the sword away from him, and then banished Arthur to the wall? But, if the SotM has lost Dawn, then is he really the Sword of the Morning anymore? I am just trying to feel out all the angles.
The colors that Mance chooses to wear, the black with red accents, does fit House Targaryen (so I see the Mance is Rhaegar ideas, as well as all the Bard imagery in Mance's story) and also House Qorgyle. It could also fit House Blackfyre, if Mance is a bastard of that line, so with the color's reversed. But those color's don't suit House Dayne at all.
Most of the time, I think Mance is just Mance, although GRRM has laid some strong implications in the text that he could have a secret identity, but those implications might lead us to a false path, and not the truth, which is that Mance is just what he claims to be.
stdaga you really believe in crypts theory? I am really overprotective of Dawn and House Dayne for me Dawn is protected by Office of SotM and waits for Mance/Edric Dayne to claim it - I can only wait to see how Darkstar will turn out in TWOW to see if he is worthy of Dawn or not but no other male has a claim to Dawn imo.
My initial feeling on reading the series was that Dawn was in the Winterfell crypts. As a matter of fact, I clung to that for a long time, and I think the sword is not supposed to be there, which is one of the reasons that the Kings of Winter/Lords of Winterfell look on Ned with some sort of disapproval. Or at least Ned feels like they do! If it wasn't for GRRM's SSM that states that Dawn is at Starfall waiting to be claimed by the next SotM then I still would not doubt this idea.
What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?
Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.
However, we do have that SSM, and in the last couple of years, I have become very convinced there is a broken sword in this story. I used to think it was Ice, that sword was figuratively broken by Tywin and would need to be reforged, BUT, I am no longer convinced that Ice will be reforged into one blade, although if it is, I hope they name it Winter, and whoever wields it can smile when they say "Winter is Coming" for you...
But I now think that Dawn might be the broken sword in this story. And there are enough concepts of broken swords in both mythology and literature that I think GRRM would pay homage to this concept. Discussion with other's on this board, mostly shymaid , who pointed out how often phrases such as "dawn is breaking", "dawn had broken", "dawn broke", etc that it has made me wonder just why GRRM uses that phrase so very much. It might mean nothing and that is just a phrase he uses to announce morning, but it tempts me to think it means something more. And if Dawn is broken, what if it's waiting at Starfall, just as GRRM claims, but it is not useful in any way. What good is a broken sword? No one needs to claim it. I think Dawn breaking might be the thing that has brought about this second long night. Not really any proof, but loads of speculation.
As to Dawn being claimed by a worthy son of Starfall, that phrase from the World Book could also indicate that perhaps the sword does not need Dayne blood to claim it, only a person who was born at Starfall. We have no indication that Darkstar was born or raised at Starfall, but Edric seems to have been. Had there been the five year gap, this could work for Edric, but so far, we don't see either him or Gerold Dayne fighting with a great sword. We don't see many people fighting with a greatsword. Mance is quite good with one, the Mountain the Rides (or whatever he is now), Randyll Tarly, Ilyn Payne, the Greatjon, and Jaime has imagery of a golden greatsword associated with him standing vigil at Tywin's funeral although he used a longsword in battle before he lost his hand. Sam Tarly is associated with Heartsbane (and he dreams of slicing meat with it) and Jon Snow is associated with Ice, other important greatswords in the story. While Sam doesn't concentrate much on sword skills in the story, Jon does, and while a bastard sword isn't the same size as a great sword, Jon does need to practice making two-handed cuts, which could be considered practice for a greatsword. I just am not sold that is actually still an intact, usable sword,and I do wonder if it's a bit of a red herring.
But honestly, all of my thoughts and speculation might mean nothing, and Dawn is waiting shiny and intact at Starfall, waiting for a knight of House Dayne and son of Starfall to claim it! End even if Edric seems quite young, we have incidents in our story, such as Benjicot Blackwood or Dalton Greyjoy who were young and impressive warriors, and there is no reason to think that Edric Dayne could not be that as well. If Gerold Dayne claims Dawn, then I expect we might get to see the title Sword of the Evening title for a man known as Darkstar! Either of those possibilities would be satisfying, I think.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I have a strong doubt that Dawn is actually at Starfell, or if it is, then it is in pieces, and not all of the pieces are together. My gut instinct from my first read of Game was that Dawn was actually in the crypts. I have let that go a little over the years, but if Mance is Elder Dayne, then the Dawn sword makes the most sense for what Mance is seeking in the crypts (or if Dawn is broken, then perhaps the hilt is in the crypts). Mance as Abel is currently on his third trip (that we know of) to Winterfell in approximately ten years. That seems excessive, considering Mance had to take time to unite the wildling tribes, which could not have been easy and probably took some time and dedication. Something in Winterfell is very important to Mance's plan, and the story is seeming to tell us it's in the crypts.
I know there is an SSM about Dawn being in Starfall. At least until Darkstar gets his hands on it in Winds. While I think GRRM has no problem misdirecting fans I don't think he would outright lie to us. Changing his mind on something is certainly in the cards however.
Dayne's have a role to play in the South, not in the North. Granted it might be all the same depending on how fall the Others get.
Really? I was thinking Arthur is Mance - though black cloak with three red strings seems to be reverted colors of Qorgyle's and Mance could be bastard of Lord Commander Qorgyle in truth? Still Mance's unusual talent with great sword and the fact he loves the sound screams Arthur. I think like Jaime who had a problem with too many vows Arthur chose his vows as SotM at the end.
Also Oberyn squired for House Oorgyle, I can't help but think that is important... somehow.
I have read many theories on Arthur being Mance but I don't buy it. Personally I think its far more interesting for Mance to be the grandson of Bloodraven.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!