Rhaegar + Lyanna = Dany

stdaga,

thelasthearth.com/thread/21/make-hmmmmm?q=sword+of+the+evening


Some of my thoughts on Dayne's and Swords of the Evening

Okay, Wraith , I finally formulated some of my thoughts on the title SotM and SotE, and I am going to double post it, both here and on the "things that make you go hmmmmmm" thread, page 51, because I was confused about what thread I was posting on. Sorry for any confusion!

So, the idea of the Sword of the Morning and the Sword of the Evening possessing the same sword, but using a different title has had me thinking of the planet Venus for some time. In ancient times, the Evening Star and Morning Star (in regards to Venus) were seen to be different stars, or planet's if you will. While Venus is a planet, what GRRM would refer to a "wanderer" in this world, it is one of the brightest objects in our sky, next to the sun and then the moon. At times, Venus can even be seen in the day light. It's different than a star, which would appear to flicker or twinkle, while the planet would reflect constant light from the sun. It could be said to glow with a steady light. Because Venus is an inferior planet (meaning it's closer to the sun than the earth) it's orbit is less than the earths and because of this, sometimes we see Venus in the early morning and it can be referred to as a "morning star" while sometimes it appears in the evening, and is called the "evening star".

I have been wondering if the title that the holder of Dawn earns could have something to do with the sword Dawn being tied to a star, or a wanderer, in the story. If the sword is tied to an inferior planet, sometimes that wanderer would appear in the morning while other times it would appear in the evening. Could the title "Sword of the Morning" or "Sword of the Evening" have something to do with how the wanderer/planet/star appears at the time of day when the new wielder of Dawn is chosen? It would tie back to some of our own world mythos. At one point, both ancient Greeks and Egyptians thought that Venus was two separate "stars". When it appeared in the morning, the Greek's referred to the star as Phosporos, or the "bringer of light", and they called it Hesperos, or "the star of the evening" if it appeared in the evening sky. It was not long before the Greek's realized this was the same "star" only it's path around the sun was shorter than earths, so it could appear in either the morning or evening, depending on it's orbit in comparison to earth's orbit. Now, I know this isn't news to many people, but I wonder if this old idea could be tied to how the Sword of the Morning/Evening earned it's title. Not the actual sword it's self, but the bearer of the swords name.

Interestingly, in our sky, Venus is the planet that rotates on it's axis the slowest in our solar system (one Venus day takes 116 earth days), and it moves in a clockwise pattern around the sun, while earth and most other objects that orbit the sun move in a counter-clockwise direction. This is referred to as a retrograde orbit. Many comet's also travel around the sun in a retrograde orbit, which could tie the idea of the comet and the bright wanderer together in the eyes of people from Planetos, if it in any way mimic's our own solar system. I know many people believe that Dawn is part of a meteorite that hit the earth, but I am more inclined to think that if this concept of Dawn being forged from the heart of a fallen star, or a rock that has fallen from outer space, it makes more sense to me that it was part of a comet. Not a whole comet, but perhaps just part of a comet that has broken away, and one that didn't disintegrate completely while falling to the surface of Planetos. I think the retrograde orbit's could tie them together, as far as a creation story.

So, if the idea of the Dawn sword is linked to the path of a wanderer, a planet in the sky, if the wielder of the Dawn sword is chosen while the wanderer is in the morning sky, then the wielder would be known as a Sword of the Morning, while if the Dawn sword's wielder is chosen while the wander is in the evening, he would then be known as the Sword of the Evening. This seems to fit in my mind because GRRM seems to use a lot of myths and concepts from our own planet, and he twists them into to forms and concepts in his own world.

This is actually my preferred idea for how the title SotM or SotE is chosen.

However, this is not the only way it's possible that the Sword of the Morning or Evening title might be picked. It might be related to the the constellation that is known as in this world. Jon twice refers to the "Sword of the Morning" constellation in the story, and both times there is reference to a white star that makes up part of the constellation.

I have to admit I have never made it through much of LmL's stuff because I find podcasts don't mix well with my level of ADD and his stuff while pretty smart, just seems to shut my mind down, but I think his idea is that a comet or meteor hit the earth and caused the Long Night. This does make sense on some level, but in this case, I am trying to tie the idea of the Dawn sword to either a planet/wanderer in the sky, or to something within the constellation "Sword of the Morning". I don't know if that ties to some of LmL's thoughts, since I have never pursued his idea's beyond a very basic understanding of his theory on the Long Night and have no idea of he has thoughts on the Dawn sword.

I will say I see that the Sword of the Morning constellation probably is a reference to our own constellation Orion, which is only visible to some viewers at certain times of the year. For instance, where I live, Orion shows up in the mid-fall and disappears in early spring, but I think of it as a Winter constellation. If so, does that mean in certain locations, that the Sword of the Morning constellation only visible at certain times of the year? From where I see it, in the fall, Orion is an early evening constellation and travels through the night sky to disappear in the morning, but by spring, Orion is only visible just before the dawn. I think of Orion's belt as just that, but these three star can be knows as the Three Kings or the Three Sisters, or several other names, depending on culture or myth.

The first reference to the constellation is this:



So, we get some idea of the astronomy concept in the story. Seven known wanders equal's seven known planets, although we are not told if all seven wanders can be seen with the naked eye. In our own solar system, only five planets can be seen with the naked eye. Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn can be seen with the naked eye, while Uranus (maybe can be seen if your eye site is better than mine, I guess) and Neptune cannot, nor can any of the satellites of the known planets. (I am honestly not sure currently if Pluto is considered a planet again, or if it's a dwarf planet ) From out view on earth, sometimes planets move through known constellations. Ygritte tells Jon that when the Theif (a planet he knows as the Smith) is in the constellation the Moonmaid, then it's a good time for a man to steal a bride. So, we are given the idea than when a planet moves through a constellation on Planetos, it might be seen as a message, or to be important. Now, as far as I know, the planet Venus never travels through the constellation Orion on our planet, but what in GRRM's world this is different?

What if a certain wanderer moves through the constellation Sword of the Morning in as viewed from Planetos. Perhaps if a certain wanderer is in Sword of the Morning, it could link to how the wielder of Dawn is named? The Sword of the Morning constellation seems to have the same name in the mythos of the Wildlings and the people south of the wall in Westeros. Unlike some other planet's or constellations, which Jon tells us about, such as the Thief/Smith, the Stallion/Horned Lord and The King's Crown/The Cradle (this constellation might turn out to be very important also, but I don't want to digress to much, although I am very capable of digressing right down into a deep rabbit hole without really even trying).



Most normally, it seems like the hilt/star of the constellation is a bright white star. But what if something, a wanderer or some other astronomical body (and I am not an astronomy expert by any means) changes the appearance of that white star/hilt in the Sword of the Morning. What if that white star changes to red or blue or is dimmed in some way. Could that change the way the Sword of the Morning is named?

Lots of speculation here, and I honestly prefer the idea of the Sword of the Morning/Evening being linked to a Venus type wanderer and earning it's name in that way, but this is another, more tinfoily thought that I have had. What if a certain wanderer changes the appearance or color of the hilt in the Sword of the Morning, which might make that constellation get's it's name changed to Sword of the Evening? This seems fairly unbelievable to even myself, and it's right out of my own tinfoil.

And to just derail slightly, in our world, the planet Mercury is more difficult to spot than many of the planets and it's only seen for a couple days in the spring and fall to the naked eye, but this planet mostly looks white, but occasionally looks pinkish/reddish. Could that idea of a color change to a star change how the wielder of Dawn is named?

I have also wondered if a comet traveled through the constellation Sword of the Morning, would that be seen as some type of important event or harbinger of something?

And just one more crazy type of thought. In GRRM's story, Dying of the Light, the setting of the story is a wandering planet called Worlorn, and this planet is not linked to a specific solar system, but wander's freely through space. The story is set during a time when the wandering Worlorn moves close enough to a giant sun so that it can sustain human like life for a certain period of time before it moves away from the giant sun and into the cold darkness of space, which of course means death to all the life that is on Worlorn. The only reason I bring up this idea, is what if such a planet existed in the world of Planetos, and it has effected life or myth on Planetos. Also, GRRM seems to call his planet Wanderer's which I find might be a hint to what is going on. In my research of Orion, I came across an article that detailed new images from the Orion nebula that hint at wandering planets within the constellation itself, much too far away to ever be seen by the human eye, or without the aid of a ginormous telescope lens. But GRRM has used wandering planets in his past fiction, and might be using it again. I would even suspect that Planetos could be such a planet, but it doesn't really makes sense to the idea of the stars that can be seen from Planetos, or the ideas of repeating "twelve houses of heaven" that the Citadel is aware of.

I tried to keep my thoughts pretty concise, but as usual I have failed and wandered a bit all over the place (much like Worlorn). I am just trying to figure out if something in the name of the Sword of the Morning or Sword of the Evening could link to an event or how something appears in the sky as viewed from Planetos. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, even if it's to tell me I am fooking nuts!

Haha! Sometimes I am like a dog with a bone and I can't stop till of have worried the whole thing to nothing ... and probably eaten a hole in my bed and pulled the stuffing out all over the living room. I'm a lot like my dog! 




I think it's interesting that both north and south of the wall, the people agree on the name of the Sword of the Morning constellation. Also the Ice Dragon, the Moonmaid and the Shadowcat. Those hint at an older naming system, something that existed before the wall was built, or that is how I look at it. I think the other constellations or planets that have different names come from a time after the wall might have been built. GRRM never gives us any idea of these constellations and what they might be known by in different cultures in Essos, so it's hard to say if some of the influences on these names changed after people migrated from the east.

As to Dawn, after my initial thoughts on Dawn being in the crypts of Winterfell, I went through a long stage (part of me still is in it) where I think that Dawn is a huge red herring in this story, as well as the SotM office. Something to tease and tempt us with, but it has no importance to the outcome of the story. This is an unpopular opinion, of course. I want to think it's important, but I am not sure it really is.

As to the Sword of the Evening, I do think the title change doesn't really mean anything important, that is why I wondered if the title comes from a period when a star/wanderer/planet is showing in either the morning horizon or the evening horizon. Like our planet Venus, this event would last for a long period as the "morning" star, then disappear from the sky for a period, before being reborn as an "evening" star. And this cycle is repeated over and over. So, for a new person who is chosen to wield Dawn, their title would be based on where the star was in the sky. I doubt a title makes any difference in meaning to what the office means, but there should be some explanation for the difference in title. Mimicking our planet Venus might explain it. Of course, I am probably way off base, and GRRM just thought the titles sounded cool.



There are several character archetypes in that story that fit into ASOIAF. And miscommunication or not telling the truth to protect the feelings of others plays a huge role. Also the idea that this world has several types of settlements, all built by different types of people from different planet's appeals to me. These cities don't fit together and never will, and if you lost the history of why these cities were built to start with, people who survive might make up very strange myths indeed about how they were formed. I thought it was a pretty interesting story!

ETA: just to clarify a bit about Dawn/SotM being a red herring, I look at it like the idea of Excalibur and even King Arthur. It seems to me that there is much arthurian legand that seems to lie around House Dayne. A warrior who can wield a special sword, a somewhat magical woman who seems to have custody of this special sword, a very special sword itself. But Arthur and Excalibur are part of legend in our world even if they were indeed part of truth in the past, and I think that is what Dawn and the SotM will become to Westeros. A legend, something the people talk about in a thousand years but neither the sword or the title will have reemerged. 

ETA 2.0: One thing that seems to tie House Dayne to Venus to me is Ashara herself. We certainly don't know much about her, but her name pops up a couple of times, and she seems important. Ancient Sumerian's understood that Venus was one planet but at times it appeared in the dawn and sometimes at dusk. They called this planet Innana and worshiped a goddess by the same name. She later became worshiped by a larger group in Mesopotamia and was then known as Ishtar. Innana/Ishtar is associated with Venus, as well as with an eight-pointed star (I am curious to how many points GRRM intended to be on the Dayne sigil's star?) In the worship of Ishtar, which is loaded with ritual prostitution, a king would have a "sacred marriage" and have sex with a woman from her cult who was representing the goddess. I wonder what would happen if that union produced a child? In myth, Innana had a twin brother who it seems she might have had an incestuous relationship with, and she and this brother are noted to dispense "divine justice", and Innana has the power to release powerful storms onto the earth.  She is also associated with both the heavens and the underworld, mimicking Venus, which disappears on one horizon, is missing for many days, then is reborn on the opposite horizon. Innana/Ishtar is sometimes associated with the name Ashtart, Asherdu, or Asherah. All of these strongly remind of Ashara. 

Of course, it's hard to say if any of this inspired GRRM but some of the similarities seem hard to deny.

ETA 3.0: If you can't tell, I am conflicted about whether the Daynes are a red herring and mean nothing to the story, or if they are the MOST integral part of the story. 

That is pretty much how I feel, too! Although, if it happens, I will be shocked if the child is Jon. Just no way!! My gut instinct is that Prince Silverstring and the Stark Maid didn't have much more contact than at Harrenhal, and that whole story is overblown, or just a false lead to give an excuse for a rebellion.

Link:

Great reply!👍
Here is something I found in a mythology book recently, it matches a lot what you say. And look at all the parallels in our ice and Fire story! Dragonlords, falling stars, Heros, Meteorites...etc.

Quote from Preseli Bluestone book by Simon Lilly:

"Arthur partakes somewhat of the same nature, brought up by Merlin then introduced back into society when ready to take up his role. He is the hidden saviour, the warrior, the protector, the upholder of Order. His presence is woven throughout the topography of Britain: his grave, sleeping places, thrones, seats, beds, courts and houses can be found in place-names all around Britain.

Arthur’s Round Table echoes not only Christ with His Twelve Disciples, but also the year with its twelve months, the circular horizon and the wheeling of the stars. Arthur is also the Bear, the guardian of the unmoving Pole Star, the pivot of creation around which all else revolves. And the Pole Star is nothing but a reflection of the unmoving land upon which we stand, the centre of the horizon’s wheel, our home, our place. The Land is the final part of this Trinity with Arthur and Merlin. The land is the castle, its lady, who is the goddess, the fertile, the graceful, the mother of all. It is that which sustains and succours human beings and all life.

In some tales Merlin becomes trapped in crystal rock. In other stories Arthur and his knights sleep for centuries waiting in a hidden rock cavern. Both Arthur and Merlin thus enter the land, the goddess, the rock, the bones of the earth awaiting a timely return.

In some tales the Grail itself, so central to the later Arthurian cycles, is a stone fallen from heaven, a starry stone that is a perfect symbol of the microcosm within the macrocosm, of heaven within the mundane and earthly.

"Arthur" means "bear". His father's name is phonetically very similar: "Uther". Some comment that there may be significance in the reflection of syllables between the two names. Others point out that the tradition of alliterative names is common in British-Welsh lineages. What becomes the family name: "Pendragon", interpreted by Geoffrey as " head of the dragon"
suggest a titular role as war-lord. Geoffrey links this name-giving to the appearance of a dragon-shaped comet, and, indeed, the association of comets, dragons and a rise in fortune is worldwide.

It is hard to guess the loyalties of Geoffrey and how much he selected or changed the older source stories and myths to suit his primary audience, the elite Norman aristocracy. For example, this comet theme reminds us of the story of the rise of the Julian Dynasty in Rome. Augustus, successor to Julius Caesar, (never one to miss a good PR opportunity), used the appearance of a comet in the sky above the capital to represent the apotheosis of dead Caesar to the rank of the gods. Thus, a comet appears on many Augustan coins reminding citizens of the divine approval shown for the ruling Julian dynasty to which he was heir. Geoffrey’s readers would inevitably also make a meaningful connection with the appearance of Halley’s Comet, which presaged William of Normandy's successful invasion of England. This well-known sign is clearly depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry.

So we have a tightly-knit group of names that translate as: Bear, War-leader, Man from the Sea, Dragon Head, Golden One, Inspiration/Divine Nectar.

In Welsh tradition, Merlin is sometimes conflated with Taliesin, a magical semi-divine bard. Both are born from the sea and are eloquent at an unnaturally young age. "Taliesin" means "bright-browed" and has connections to the Celtic solar deities of art and eloquence. Where the sun descends into the Underworld, the western horizon of the Ocean for the Welsh Britons, is always considered a magical place. Merlin, being "of the sea" links him to the western sky or horizon. Arthur, as the Bear, clearly has reference to the constellation Ursa Major, which in a great many Old European traditions is depicted as a bear. (The wagon or plough is the other main image for these stars). Draconis, the Dragon, is another major circumpolar constellation. Modern studies in the structure of worldwide myths repeatedly show clear and direct astronomical references, not only to seasonal changes, but also to detailed observation of the behaviour and appearance of many stars, constellations and planets. Perhaps the tales of Arthur and his knights are simply a retelling of the same cycles of cosmic phenomena that stimulated and inspired megalithic peoples to create structures, enclosures, alignments and henges!

Merlin and Arthur both become numinous 'genius locii', never dead but hidden within the land. In folk tales they wait for a time when they are needed once more to save the land. Arthur recovers from his battle wounds in Avalon, The Isle of Apples, associated with the Somerset town of Glastonbury, or is sleeping with his best knights in a cave, occasionally stumbled upon by accident but never able to be returned to. Merlin is lost or trapped within a forest or a stone. They are both guardians, one of wisdom and magic, the other of sovereignty."

As for Ned and Ashara I have a feeling that it is a broken heart or anger even.
I always thought that Rhaegar and Ashara are Danys parents. Ned found out when he went to Starfall. A broken promise. A collapsing Tower as in the Tarot.
I also think the ToJ was in fact the Palestone tower at Starfall, not a tower in North Dorne!