1.10 Jon II

I am just going to jump in and add on to a few things in this chapter that hint at possible parentage to me. There is tons of foreshadowing in this chapter, but not a lot I view as alphabet soup, but a few things stand out to me.


I know shymaid made the connection to Cat possibly seeing Ned at this time. But I wondered on this reread of she didn't think she was seeing Brandon. We know that Ned and Jon look alike, and that is probably the connection. But by Cat's own recollection, Ned was plainer and shorter than Brandon, but that doesn't mean they didn't share a strong physical resemblance. There is no reason to think that Jon doesn't look very like Brandon as well as Ned. Either way, Jon expects her to have a strong reaction, so who ever he thinks she see's for a moment, it protects him and allows him to move further into the room.


Nothing to do with parentage here, but it does give me a bit of a chill to see what Catelyn's physical remains have become, a walking, cold-eyed, stone-hearted monster, countered with this bold thought by Jon. After all, Lady Stoneheart might be one of the worst things that Jon will have to face.



Again, with Jon sensing that Catelyn was really seeing his face for the first time. So, this makes me think, that if she truly thinks that Ned is Jon's father, then maybe for the first time she is seeing Brandon in Jon's features. It's possible!

But the "it should have been you" is a very odd statement. Should have been you- who has fallen? I know that is the easy interpretation, and has even spawned theories that Jon is a climber just like Brandon, but we see no proof of that, and when Jon is climbing the Skirling pass, he isn't exceptionally good at it, like Stonesnake is. And he doesn't have past recollections of climbing, so I don't think it makes any sense to assume Cat meant that Jon should have been the one to fall.

So what the heck does this mean? If Jon has no reason to fall, then what does Catelyn mean by this comment. I have often wondered if she realizes that Jon is destined for Winterfell, as in "it should have been you" who is heir to Winterfell and the north. I know that is crack pot territory, but the line is perplexing and I struggle to make anything logical out of it.

And then we get the passage between Jon and Robb that is seen as almost a confirmation of a sort of RLJ:


On the surface, it seems like a casual connection to the black of the nights watch. That is certainly what Robb means by Jon dressing in black, and as to Jon's meaning, which is forced, is that black was always his color.

So, what the heck could this mean. It could just be a hint that Jon was always destined for the Nights Watch, maybe not by himself or Ned, but by fate (GRRM) itself.

It also excites the people who believe in RLJ, because black is a Targaryen color. Red is as well, but black is the color of Rhaegar's armor, it is the color of the Targaryen sigil, a red three headed dragon on a black background, if Jon is legitimate, and possibly a black dragon on a red background if Jon is a bastard, which would be a reversal of house sigil for a bastard. Except the reversal of the Targaryen banner is the Blackfyre sigil, a specific group of Targaryen bastards. Maybe the actually true line of Targaryen decent. So, could this mean that Jon is a secret Targaryen? Yes it could. It's one of those subtle things that GRRM writes that have layers of meanings.

But another house that has black in it's sigil is House Baratheon. A black stag on a golden background. And a bastards reversal of the sigil would be a golden stag on a black background. This line could as easily hint at Robert being Jon's father as easily as it hints at Rhaegar as Jon's father (or Aerys, if we want to consider that path).

Of course, I really think if Jon ever has a sigil of his own, it will have a white direwolf on it. Now, will the background be Stark grey, or the black of the Targaryen's, the Baratheon's or the Night's Watch, I have no idea. The nights watch sigil is simply a black background, and that is exactly what this comment by Jon might mean. He was always destined for the wall even though he wants Winterfell.


This has nothing to do with parentage, but I just love it too much to pass it by. Whether Jon and Robb end up being half-brothers by blood, or cousins, or not even that, they are brothers in their hearts. I am sure they love each other a lot and even hate each other a bit, but in this case, when Jon needed more time, Robb was his wingman, and it no way was going to tell Benjen that he had found Jon, or push Jon away from Winterfell before Jon was ready. I love this passage so much! This and those damn snowflakes in Robb's hair get's me weepy all the damn time!


We have been told that Jon's eyes are a grey so dark they seem almost black, and now we have Jon comparing Arya's eyes to his own. Later in the story, we are told that Arya has grey eyes, not ever dark or light, but grey, but in this instance, Jon seems to see a similarity between their eye colors.

I have heard it argued that Jon's must be part Targaryen because his eyes are like Valyrian steel, as Valyrian steel is described as dark or smokey grey and is thought to be forged with dragon fire. But here we have Jon thinking that Arya's eyes are very similar to his own. I don't see how Arya is a secret Targaryen, so this eye color is a Stark feature, I think.

And of course we know that Jon looks like Ned, Jon also looks like Arya, who we are told looks like Lyanna, which means that Jon must look like Lyanna. And Jon might look like Lyanna, but he might not. I think they all just share the dark hair, grey eyes, and the solemn and long face of the Starks.

I will say that with each reread, this whole passage between Jon and Arya become more explicit and sexual each time I read it. It could be that my brain has been corrupted by the incest in this story, but it's not subtle between Jon and Arya, and it's uncomfortable since they are not just siblings, but 9 and 14 in age.


Also, the discussion of Needle having a name, like all the best swords do, is a personal favorite of mine. Both Jon and Arya think that the "best" sword is Ice. I love that. It is certainly a special sword in this story, but another part of this passage catches my attention.

Then it came to her. She was that quick. Jon recognizes that Arya is quick of mind. If Arya is so like Lyanna, then I infer from this that Lyanna was also quick of mind, so it makes me have a hard time thinking that Lyanna could have so stupidly eloped with Rhaegar, knowing how much turmoil it would cause for so many people. If she was with him at some point, maybe he truly did kidnap her. Which gives more credence to Robert's hatred of Rhaegar, for if Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, did he rape her too? That could certainly create a child, but I just am not convinced that child is Jon. But maybe. GRRM has given us so many hints and paths to follow, it's like we are lost in a maze with no exit!

I tried to stick to parentage here, and I only failed a little bit. These chapters just have so much overall foreshadowing, when looking at minute details, it's hard to ignore the foreshadowing and hints!

To be fair, I think we all force ideas to suit our own theories! And Jon does have a connection to two important Valyrian steel swords, Ice and Longclaw, and this works with the idea that Jon himself is Lightbringer.  He yearns for one and wields the other! Unless he years for Dawn and just doesn't realize it? 

Sooo, since Targaryens are famous for purple eyes, Jon is Targaryen because his eyes are dark grey - which resembles Valyrian steel, which he has one of and dreams of another, and the Valyrians made, and the Targaryens are Valyrian and had dragons then lost them but now has dragons again. AND he will wield Dawn - which isn't Valyrian steel and he doesn't have any recent Dayne blood but that doesn't matter because HERO! Got it! 
Sorry, just couldn't help myself!
I know I can force some things, but I truly hope I'm not that lost!

Oh, that's physically painfull! I feel braindamage coming on... We have spoilertags, man! Use them!
The emotional trauma I have to work through now...

It's hard to know what Robb is thinking but I wonder how Robb was influenced as a child by his parents. Ned with his old gods, the silent gods of the forest and rivers and rocks, and Catelyn, with the seven. Did they each try to influence all the their children? It seems Sansa has a connection to the Seven, liking the prayers and songs, and maybe Bran too, as he was frightened by the heart tree. But Bran becomes drawn to the weirwood, and Sansa seeks solace in the godswood, both at the Red Keep and in the Eyrie! Neither have a weirwood, but still, there are trees. Rickon, too young to tell. Robb and Arya are wild cards, but Arya seems to feel comfortable in the godswood at the Red Keep, and later we see her in front of the heart tree at Harrenhal. What about Robb? I would be shocked if Cat didn't try to steer him toward the Seven but we get this image of Robb with his fellow northmen, praying before the heart tree.


Did Robb pray to the old gods before, or was it Ned's death, and the strength of his fellow bannermen that influences Robb's prayer to the heart tree that day? Not even all northman, but a Blackwood, the family that Bloodraven's mother is descended from. I can't help but think that it was Robb who was the first to find the dead direwolf and her pups. Where the old gods speaking to Robb long before Ned's death? 


It's best to try to ignore their ages when it comes to this stuff. But GRRM does have Arya making her first kill at 9 or 10. These are not ordinary kids!


So, I always felt like the bond between Jon and Arya was incredibly tight, and I felt like they might be the siblings closest to each other. When I first came across the idea of Jon and Arya as a couple, I was certain they were cousins, and that is acceptable behavior in Westeros. If they are half-siblings, it is rather uncomfortable. But it's there, in the text, by god! I would swear it's sexual and intentional, no matter what the truth of their parentage is.



Bear with me while I go over some of the phrases that I think are either hints of a sexual nature, or almost overt. I hadn't really thought about your bloody blade catch until now, but I included that too. Now, I don't think it's a current relationship like that, but it hints at what is in their future. I think it's very multilayered. I know that a lot of people don't see it this way, and that is fine. We all interpret stuff differently. But I see it, and I can't unsee it.

For instance, when Jon shows her how to hold it, talks to her about the balance, how it feels, and tells her to be careful with it, I nearly lose it. It's almost laugh out loud funny. I admit I have a gutter mind!


Jon might be a Stark Stark!



My fingers did the walking on that Ned and the family blade thing, but I was a little proud of it!



Well, I am not trying to. but my percentage might be up to 0.003% now. This whole sword/bastard thing just popped into my head this time around when Jon gave Arya Needle. But even if Arya might not be Cat's daughter, she is certainly claimed and raised as a legitimate child of the Stark household, so legally, she could never be considered a bastard, I don't think.


It's an interesting possibility. I had considered that, but was looking for a family connection. However, Mance physically could be similar to Jon, who seems to have a Stark-like build. Could Mance have Stark blood? Ned didn't seem to concerned about Mance Rayder, and maybe there is a reason he didn't think they needed to worry about the King Beyond the Wall? Ned never tells us he has been to the wall, or beyond it, but I would guess he has at least been to the wall. When he tells Robert he needs to see it, Ned seems to be speaking with some knowledge. And I think that Ned traveled quite a bit in the north, so I would be shocked that he would not have visited the wall on more than one occasion. Could Mance have been part of Ned's plan to resettle the new gift? Wild speculation, I know, but those people need to come from somewhere.


Honestly, I think we all are. It's a crapshoot!


Well, everyone seems to think that Jon looks like Ned, but we don't know that Brandon might not be very close in looks to Ned. All we have is Cat's description of the first time she seen Ned, as shorter and plainer of face. But that is only one opinion! And Cat was probably head over heals in love with Brandon. But that does not mean there is a no resemblance between Brandon and Ned and therefore Brandon and Jon! It might be a strong resemblance. Also, there might be no resemblance at all! We don't have much to go on.


I actually feel the opposite. I don't know why, but north is important. Lady Stoneheart has some vengeance in her, and there are Frey's at Winterfell, rumors of Arya being married to Ramsay Snow Bolton (Lady Stoneheart doesn't know this isn't the real Arya), she has Robb's crown, she has part of Ned's sword. I can see her and the brotherhood moving north. All speculation here, because we really don't know what is going to happen with Jon, but if Jon survives, or is resurrected, and he moves toward Winterfell, then Cat/Lady Stoneheart might have every reason to want to stop him from claiming Winterfell. It was always Cat's biggest worry, and I can't imagine that death would change her feelings on that. Of course, part of me doesn't think that Catelyn  is the spirit animating Lady Stoneheart, so that could change things in my speculation.


Well, I haven't read any of the released chapters from Winds, but I have seen people commenting on it, and I gather the Mercy chapter of Arya's indicates that she is growing up! Not 9 forever!

I think that I am touched by the few insights into Robb that we get in the books, because they are so rare. This is maybe my favorite peek at Robb and how he was dealing with the stress of being in charge of Winterfell, missing his father and mother, and three of his siblings, his dealing with Bran's accident and near death.


Ahhh Robb! Ahhh Bran!

These are the few passages I could find. There might be more.

Here, in Bran's POV, Jon is giving Robb credit. I have viewed this as Robb was the first one of them to come across the pups while they were racing, but since it all happened off-screen, it's hard to say.

They could mean Robb and Jon, or it could include Eddard, or they could mean the whole party of men that were traveling that day. Vague!

In Jon's POV, Jon is thinking that he and Robb found the pups together. And, really, they did.

Here, Catelyn gives her boys credit for finding the wolf pups. I assume she means Robb and Bran and is not claiming Jon as one of her sons. It is interesting how she claims there were five in the litter, plus one, and not six pups.


I admit I could be making much too much about it. I have seen this argument multiple times on the Westeros boards, and it really seems like you see it or you don't and there is no in between. And at this point, as there is no confirmation of anything, it's anyone's guess.


I had noted the shaving part before, and how it's an odd thing to talk about to your little sister about. Leg (or something else implied) shaving! But I had not connected it to Brandon's blade, and the age difference is interesting, because there are five years between Jon and Arya and probably 4 (maybe 5) years between Brandon and Lyanna. It's an interesting similarity.

We don't hear much about women shaving in Westeros, and this passage and Cersei's haircut and body shaving before her walk of shame are the only things I can think of. And Cersei literally get's shaved from head to ...  She is bare for her walk through the city!


I went over this chapter several times for this reread and I laughed like immature junior high kid each time. I can be such a child at times.

Yes it does!!! 


Bahahaha!

Well, I doubt my percentage will go down because I don't give ground easily, but as I have a monstrously long way to go to even get to 1%, I think we are all safe in the fact that this is not going to happen in this story.


I struggle with Mance a bit. I don't know if he is trustworthy or not, telling the truth, telling as much of the truth as he wants, or just lying at times! He doesn't seem to act fatherly toward Jon if you ask me, but that doesn't really mean anything.



Well, Lady Stoneheart might stay forever in the riverlands, but the Twins are very close to the border of the neck and the north. I would be shocked if she didn't at least make it to the Twins. And if the children of House Stark start returning to the north, I would be surprised she would not try to find them. Hopefully we get an answer some day.



It is sexual in nature, or becomes so even though it begins innocently. It seems like a clear nod toward a Robert and Lyanna interaction. But in the end, between Gendry and Arya, nothing happens. However, if they had been older, it might have made a difference. Or if their positions in society would have been the same, such as Robert and Lyanna's. Gendry is very aware of his status as a bastard and Arya's as a high born girl, even though she is dirty, has a terrible hair cut and is dressed like a boy!


I will probably break down and read those chapters some day, but for now, I remain stubbornly in opposition of reading any of the story in Winds until the damn book is published!