I was joking of course I only used Luke Roberts' real age at the time of the GOT scene shooting, because we clearly have no idea where in his twenties (?) book Arthur was at the time. I personally don't think it means anything when it comes to the books.
I appreciate that you used Luke Robert's picture in your post! And while I agree casting on the show really should not distract us too much from the book story, it is interesting that they did cast someone who was much older than Ned and his companions. It's possible it was just to get a certain actor in for a cameo, but maybe you are on to something. Even joking we can sometimes stumble on to great ideas, and since I am questioning SAD's age as being pretty young, it is also possible that he wasn't young at all. Even if he was 30 at the toj, it would make him significantly older than Ned, while not making him elderly at all.
We don't speak like that about Septa Lemore!!! Though reading Tyrion's Dance chapter I can definitely see the hussy
Haha! Yes, stripping down naked in front of a stranger is very bold. So Lemore might be a hussy, but she is a hussy with a plan that seems to involve distracting a known whoremonger!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
While I am convinced that Brandon did die of strangulation I am not convinced of the story about Rickard. It just seems like something that awful would be discussed more. Still, it might very well be what happened and there was just not many witnesses. Something like this would turn more people against Aerys that already were, so it seems very politically stupid.
We sure don't know everything we can or need of that part of the story! The political part of it doesn't make any sense at all; I can see Aerys clamping down out of fear, but on the other hand that fear might stay his hand so some degree. Mad or not, I think even he would be able to see how stupid that would be and turn more people against him. We hear many Targaryen kings lamenting the loss of dragons as a source of power, so I'd think Aerys would be aware of that same problem.
Yes, it is. Littlefinger is an asshole, but I almost wonder if he wasn't testing Ned with rumored knowledge about his fathers death. One would think if Ned knew the supposed details of his fathers death, he would react with some of the rage that we see in him sometimes. But he answers Littlefinger pretty calmly. I mean, Ned is the guy that nearly choked Littlefinger for hinting that Catelyn was in a brothel, but no reaction to a melting comment about Stark's in general but that would be a direct insinuation to Rickards death. That is why I am questioning whether Rickard did not die in that way, or if he did, then Ned doesn't know.
Also, a man fully dressed in armor could easily be disguised from bystanders. Maybe Rickard was never in his armor. An interesting thing about that recollection by Jaime, who isn't a detail oriented person, is that the "gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire" when speaking of Rickard. Gold on spurs is an indication of knighthood, I think, so this makes me wonder if Rickard was a knight or if maybe those were not his spurs. It's possible that Rickard did take a vow of knighthood, and he does show hints of "southron ambition" but most people in the north are warriors, but not knights. Was Rickard a knight? There is a pretty good theory/discussion over on Westeros about this (in can be found here if anyone is curious but hasn't already seen it) Maybe he was a knight, maybe he wasn't. But it made me really think about perception in this story, and even people who think that someone else was wearing Rhaegar's armor when Robert killed him at the Trident. I also thought about the theories that say Jaime didn't really see Rhaella leaving the Red Keep to be taken to Dragonstone, but someone else in disguise who he thought was Rhaella. These ideas have recently made me wonder if a man who Jaime saw burned in Rickard Stark's armor wasn't really Rickard at all.
Something is off about this story about Rickard's manner of death.
It could be as easy as Ned not knowing. I've often wondered why he didn't have any strong feelings against Aerys in his POVs, as that's not really natural if the man roasted your father. 15 years or not, that would still hurt and we see that hurt in Cat II. Or he knows, and the rumors are at the forefront here.
There are things to question about the informating we have from Jamie, though I wouldn't be suprised if Aerys did roast some people (personally I think he'd feed enemies to his dragon if he had one, luckily he didn't). Haven't sat down to take a close look yet. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out!
I didn't even consider a legitimate born sibling, only the great bastards. But maybe Daeron is one of the brothers Bloodraven mentions in this comment. Good idea.
Oh, I've always taken all brothers into consideration as he was the only son of Aegon and Missy, so all his brothers were half-brothers.
We sure don't know everything we can or need of that part of the story! The political part of it doesn't make any sense at all; I can see Aerys clamping down out of fear, but on the other hand that fear might stay his hand so some degree. Mad or not, I think even he would be able to see how stupid that would be and turn more people against him. We hear many Targaryen kings lamenting the loss of dragons as a source of power, so I'd think Aerys would be aware of that same problem.
It could be as easy as Ned not knowing. I've often wondered why he didn't have any strong feelings against Aerys in his POVs, as that's not really natural if the man roasted your father. 15 years or not, that would still hurt and we see that hurt in Cat II. Or he knows, and the rumors are at the forefront here.
There is so much of this story that is implied, very craftily, but still implied, that I am questioning everything that I thought I knew. I am starting to think I need a vaccine or something to help protect me from myself!
There are things to question about the informating we have from Jamie, though I wouldn't be suprised if Aerys did roast some people (personally I think he'd feed enemies to his dragon if he had one, luckily he didn't). Haven't sat down to take a close look yet. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out!
Oh, I think Aerys did burn some people, but did he really burn a Lord Protector, the Warden of the North, the head of one of the greatest houses in the Seven Kingdoms? Maybe, but I think there is room for some doubt!
If it turns out there were only very few witnesses, I am leaning toward Aerys trying to make a point of his power to someone. Besides Aerys, the pyromancer's and Brandon, the only other people Jaime mentions are himself and Gerald Hightower. Was Aerys trying to make a point to Jaime and Gerald Hightower? So maybe he did burn Rickard in this way, but only a few people know the secret, or Rickard was killed in some other less terrible way? It would be interesting if Aerys did have Rickard beheaded, in some type of mockery of the Stark ways. It would be interesting if Ilyn Payne killed Rickard, just like he killed Ned? There is something so off about Ilyn Payne, and the fact that he knows so much, but can't express it in written or spoken words means he knows something important. I think this could mirror Wex Pyke, Theon's squire who learned to write and was able to reveal to Manderly that Rickon and Bran are not dead, and where to find Rickon.
Up until recently I have always thought the burning of a Stark was a test of some sort, to see what happened when a man of Stark blood was put to the flame. Is this the secret of kingsblood, or was Aerys just experimenting. Who know's how many prophecy's have been tangled up in Aerys head over the years. This is all still very possible, but part of me is wondering if Jaime just miss identified Rickard because of some armor?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
There is so much of this story that is implied, very craftily, but still implied, that I am questioning everything that I thought I knew. I am starting to think I need a vaccine or something to help protect me from myself!
Haha, I know the feeling! Much and more is implied, but at the same time we also have to be given information so something has to be accurate (or close to) as well. Maddening to sort one from the other...
Oh, I think Aerys did burn some people, but did he really burn a Lord Protector, the Warden of the North, the head of one of the greatest houses in the Seven Kingdoms? Maybe, but I think there is room for some doubt!
If it turns out there were only very few witnesses, I am leaning toward Aerys trying to make a point of his power to someone. Besides Aerys, the pyromancer's and Brandon, the only other people Jaime mentions are himself and Gerald Hightower. Was Aerys trying to make a point to Jaime and Gerald Hightower? So maybe he did burn Rickard in this way, but only a few people know the secret, or Rickard was killed in some other less terrible way? It would be interesting if Aerys did have Rickard beheaded, in some type of mockery of the Stark ways. It would be interesting if Ilyn Payne killed Rickard, just like he killed Ned? There is something so off about Ilyn Payne, and the fact that he knows so much, but can't express it in written or spoken words means he knows something important. I think this could mirror Wex Pyke, Theon's squire who learned to write and was able to reveal to Manderly that Rickon and Bran are not dead, and where to find Rickon.
Up until recently I have always thought the burning of a Stark was a test of some sort, to see what happened when a man of Stark blood was put to the flame. Is this the secret of kingsblood, or was Aerys just experimenting. Who know's how many prophecy's have been tangled up in Aerys head over the years. This is all still very possible, but part of me is wondering if Jaime just miss identified Rickard because of some armor?
Yeah, taking out a warden like that might just turn the others against him, so it's a high risk move.
It could be for Jamie and Gerold, both are from prowerfull houses and has influence. Or as their position as kingsguards? The last couple of days I've been questioning what we "know" about the dynamic between Aerys, Rhaegar and the kingsguard, as it has some areas that is a bit off. The armor might have been used for misidentification, but I doubt that it's all in Jamie's head. I'd think everyone there would be told who was entering the throneroom and why, so if someone else was roasted in his place I'm inclined it was a deception from Aerys to begin with. Or someone switched Rikard for someone else behind everyone's back? I'm starting to go in circles now... Urgh, Ilyn Payne. That one's creepy! Rereading his and Jamie's sparring sessions had me more creeped out that in my first read. And Jamie confessing so much to him really had me almost screaming NO! Haha! It would be kinda fitting if he did take the head of Rikard. And he does mirror Wex, but a part of me don't want to know what he knows...
In my speculations with danl earlier, we've pondered if Aerys was trying to do something similar to taking the life of one king and then his son, like Drogo does in his last battle, and maybe that has some magical purpose. But that Brandon made a mess of it by dying first. However, if Rikard wasn't roasted...?
Last Edit: Nov 27, 2017 7:09:47 GMT by shymaid: Pesky keyboard...
In my speculations with danl earlier, we've pondered if Aerys was trying to do something similar to taking the life of one king and then his son, like Drogo does in his last battle, and maybe that has some magical purpose. But that Brandon made a mess of it by dying first. However, if Rikard wasn't roasted...?
This is certainly possible, but why choose to kill them in different ways? If you need the father to die first, then you make sure he dies first. The strangling situation makes it seem like it was a game to Aerys, but I don't think it was. He was aware of many things he was doing, even if he was "mad". Unless some part of some prophecy states the men need to die in different ways, it just doesn't make much sense to me. Now, maybe GRRM wrote it entirely for its shock value, which is certainly possible, as it does push a lot of buttons with people. Still, I find it odd that we have only one report of the burning of Rickard Stark. Barristan does hint that he stood around and watched Aerys do horrible things, and this might be what he is talking about, but why be so vague about it? Maybe we will have some answers if we even get another book.
Urgh, Ilyn Payne. That one's creepy! Rereading his and Jamie's sparring sessions had me more creeped out that in my first read. And Jamie confessing so much to him really had me almost screaming NO! Haha! It would be kinda fitting if he did take the head of Rikard. And he does mirror Wex, but a part of me don't want to know what he knows...
Ilyn Payne. I am torn between his creepiness and Sansa's feeling of terror related to him, and rather enjoying his time with Jaime. One of the rereads I am interesting in would be an Ilyn Payne reread, but it's on a back burner for me.
However, there is something so off about him. His behaviors, his eyes, that fact that according to Jaime he lives in a piss filled shit-hole but still polishes his sword with great care. Who else have we seen polishe his sword with great care? Ned in Cat's very first POV. Do you suppose at some point in his life, a young Ned watched his father Rickard clean Ice in that same way, and as he became a grown man and the Lord of Winterfell, Ned emulated his father in this behavior? Did Ilyn clean his sword with this precision before Ned died?
And Ilyn can take a man's head of with great ease and precision, as we see with Ned (which was a mercy, in my opinion), and that Ilyn indicates when Jaime asks him how many swings in would take to kill Rymen Frey, who had a very think neck. Who else can take a man's head of with one swing? The Neddard. And I bet that Rickard could, too.
Ilyn also fights Jaime with a great sword. We only see Ned in battle once, when Jaime's men attack him in the streets, and I think he is using a longsword at that time, but Ned was not planning on a battle at that time, and had no reason to carry Ice, or any great sword. I know there is an SSM that states that Ned never used Ice in battle but that doesn't mean he is not capable.
There is some great tinfoil theories out in the world about Ilyn Payne and Ned, and I rather like some of them. Do I believe that is what is going on? Not convinced, but GRRM as a writer is very capable of writing about things that really cross boundaries. So not convinced, but very tempted to believe! That Varamyr prologue in Dance fired up my imagination for what could be going on with people who have the magical blood/genes of skinchangers and wargs. That chapter makes it seem like wargs are special, and directly tied to wolves. And that skinchangers can be wargs, or they might not be wargs at all. If we think that Brandon and Lyanna might have had a bond with their horses, like Dany seems to with her silver, this would be an example of skinchanging. Maybe it's the same gene that all Targaryen's who are dragon riders carry? If Brandon and Lyanna have this gene, it's possible that Ned and Benjen do too! And maybe Rickard did? Or did that come from Lyarra, whom we literally know nothing about?
I don't want to derail this too much ( ) but someday I am going to look into what Varamyr tells us about skinchangers at the end of life and how that might relate to the Starks!
As to Rickard and his death, I just started thinking again about perceptions of people and how they can be misidentified by an item that is associated with them. Upthread I mentioned a few possibilities. Another example I thought of is we see with the Hound (who is either dead or digging graves on the quiet isle) has misplaced his helmet, so it is the Hound that everyone thinks is raping and pillaging the Saltpans when it actually is Rorge. GRRM gives us these little hints all the time of mistaken identity based on items or a specific item.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.