Eesh, this really is far, far, far away from anything that happened in Jon II!
Technically Ashara is connected to Jon in the story... So I'll cling to that excuse! Some doors are best left closed...
But if any admins wants to move them to a separat thread, that's ok with me. Wraith , voice , Mojo , markg171 - it's up to you!
Only if you want us to start a new thread. We can do that for you.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Eesh, this really is far, far, far away from anything that happened in Jon II!
Technically Ashara is connected to Jon in the story... So I'll cling to that excuse! Some doors are best left closed...
But if any admins wants to move them to a separat thread, that's ok with me. Wraith , voice , Mojo , markg171 - it's up to you!
That is pretty much how all of these chapter discussion have gone. Connections that lead to other connections that finally seem far away from the original post. It's maybe a bit confusing but it does allow for free flow of ideas!
And yes, Ashara might very well be Jonno's mother!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Taking these two and combine them with Ned's statement that Arthur was the greatest knight, it could indicate that Arthur was indeed playing that nasty little game of thrones.
We get this from Bran about Ned and Ser Arthur Dayne:
"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. ACOK-Bran III
Can we trust this statement as truly being a direct quote from Ned? We already have questionable stuff in Bran's memory, like how Rickard was beheaded, and his ideas's on why Ned gave Brandon and Lyanna statues (because he loved them so much), so I do doubt this statement a bit. Did Ned really think that Arthur was the greatest knight he ever saw? Or does this mean greatest swordsman/warrior he ever saw? Because being a great swordsman doesn't make you a great knight, but if you have the mind and memory of a 7 or 8 year old, that is how it might seem. Children think more simplistically than adults, although I am not sure that GRRM allows these children to really act like children.
But I do get your point about Arthur possible playing the game of thrones. We know so little that a lot of things are possible. And if he was messing with the politics of the realm, he would not be the first kingsguard to do this type of thing.
If Renly, Loras and Margaery is an ecco of Rhaegar, Arthur and Ashara, I'd say Ashara was probably the broodmare like Margaery. But she might've loved Prince Silverstring non the less.
Here is something that has just crossed my mind. We know that Loras and Renly were lovers, and Renly still married Margaery Tyrell. Could this odd triangle be an echo of Rhaegar, Arthur and Ashara (except Ashara never got to marry her prince)?
Anyway, we see all sorts of parallel's and echos in the story, and another might involve Rhaegar/Jaime/Cersei. We know that Cersei was at court for years with Tywin, she wanted Jaime at court with her, and so she manipulated and seduced him into bed, and into a Kingsguard vow. What if something similar happened with Ashara and Arthur. Not even the lover's part of it, though it's a possibility in the way that almost everything is possible in this story, but what if Ashara was at court, and she manipulated her brother into becoming a kingsguard so they could always be close. Could Ashara have had hopes to become queen, just like Cersei did? Then, Ashara has to leave court and Arthur is stuck.
That is two possible echoes/parallel's for love triangles involving Rhaegar, Arthur and Ashara that are possible.
So, I am going to use this love triangle aspect and try to connect this back to Jon II. As we discussed upthread, there is most definitely some wording in this chapter between Jon and Arya that could be a hint at a future relationship for them. Now, this all could have been written by GRRM before he tossed aside his plans for the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle. But it does indicate that he did have a love triangle involving siblings on his mind.
One that we see in our story is Jaime/Cersei/Robert, and I think that if Cersei had married Rhaegar, she still would not have been able to ignore her feelings for Jaime, so I can see Jaime/Cersei/Rhaegar as a possibility.
We talked about the possibility of Loras/Margaery/Renly that was probably in the works, and yes, Marg would have been a broodmare of a sort, but still, bringing high honor's to the Tyrell family if she could produce an heir for Renly. Whether he was truly a king or not is debatable. Now, I do like the irony of Marg producing and heir for the Iron Throne with her brother instead of her husband (either Joff or Tommen works for this) which is exactly what Cersei and Jaime did to Robert.
We talked about the possibility of Arthur/Ashara/Rhaegar, and in this scenario, either Arthur or Ashara could have been Rhaegar's primary lover/interest, with the other sibling completing the triangle for ambition or family gain.
So, we have hints of Jon and Arya, and we also have hints of a developing relationship between Arya and Gendry. So, that is a possible triangle in conflict, Jon/Arya/Gendry.
And I think this could be an echo of a previous love triangle, either Lyanna/Brandon/Robert, or Lyanna/Eddard/Robert. I personally connect to Eddard more, because Robert and Eddard were friends, and in the rest of these triagles, it seems like there is some mutual affection or esteem between all the players. We don't ever really get the idea that Robert and Brandon knew each other, although I am sure they did, but there is no relationship in question between those two men, even though I think Robert and Brandon are probably echoes of each other for different reasons than this.
Jon II is the first chapter that I feel is an overt nod to Arya and Jon. Arya I hints at a great affection but it doesn't step up to this level, until you see it, and then you look back, and you notice it's there, too!
So, this series has hints of many love triangles, but several involving siblings.
Another one that I think is hinted at could be Robb/Sansa/Joffrey. We never see anything sexual between Robb and Sansa and we probably never would have. But Robb and Joffrey don't like one another, and Sansa is obviously head over heals crushing on her golden prince. That sets them up as a triangle of people with two parties in love and two parties in hate, and indicates a great deal of possible conflict. Now, the book doesn't really go into this, but I just rewatched the pilot episode last week, and I noted how Robb gives Sansa a look when she is making goo goo eyes at Joff, and then he gives Joff the stink eye. This is all in the courtyard, prior to Robert hobbling down from his horse. (I hated that show to book change by the way, because even if he was fat, Robert still vaulted off his horse in the books and crushed Eddard in a strong hug). I thought the play between Robb/Joff/Sansa in the show was very interesting!
So, I like the discussion of possible love triangles involving siblings because the start of such a thing is hinted at in this chapter for Jon and Arya, although it really has nothing to do with the XYZ mysteries we are investigating.
I think it's possible that Arthur and Ashara were twins without being like Jaime and Cersei, becoming lovers and having children together. They could have been lovers without being twins, or regular old siblings that loved each other but never were lovers.
It's hard to say which white sword she was dancing with, as all the KG are called that in the story. But Arthur was a white sword in a double sense with Dawn.
I think these triangles work if only two of the three triangle parties are actual lovers as long as their is tension involved with the third party.
So we get an incest-vibe here from the very biased Cersei, and it's easy to just put it aside. But still maybe something to have in mind? The scene does remind me of
The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. A Storm of Swords - Bran II
Ashara very well could have been dancing with Arthur, and it might or might not have been platonic. This story is told by Howland's children from his recollections with no names and just hints at who the characters were, and I doubt that Howland is going to implant the idea of incest to his young children. But as we discussed, we know very little about the dynamic of the Dayne family.
Whilst Alla, Elinor, and Megga took their turns with Tommen, Margaery took a turn around the floor with her father, then another with her brother Loras. The Knight of Flowers was in white silk, with a belt of golden roses about his waist and a jade rose fastening his cloak. They could be twins, Cersei thought as she watched them. Ser Loras was a year older than his sister, but they had the same big brown eyes, the same thick brown hair falling in lazy ringlets to their shoulders, the same smooth unblemished skin. A ripe crop of pimples would teach them some humility. Loras was taller and had a few wisps of soft brown fuzz on his face, and Margaery had a woman's shape, but elsewise they were more alike than she and Jaime. That annoyed her too. A Feast for Crows - Cersei III
So we get an incest-vibe here from the very biased Cersei, and it's easy to just put it aside.
It is easy to set aside some of Cersei's thoughts and statement. Especially in this case. But we do know that Margaery was drinking moon tea for some reason, and although I think it will be revealed it has nothing to do with pregnancy prevention, there is a chance it might. And Loras spent a lot of time with Marg. It reminds me a bit of hints that Anne Boleyn was accused of incest. Now, it might have been just a falsification to help her husband have her executed, but if she really was desperate to have a child, she might have turned to her brother, whom she would have trusted, whom she would have had access too, and whom had as much to lose as she did if the Boleyn's fell from power. Which they did, when Anne could not produce a male heir for her husband.
I just get a bit of a Boleyn vibe from the Tyrells. Both families were barely nobility, then uplifted to a higher power (the Tyrells were stewards to the Gardner's before Aegon destroyed them 300 years before), then with marriage they both very much increased the fortunes of their families. The Tyrell's better worry that they have already outreached themselves.
Of course, after Stannis accused she and Jaime of incest, and that her children were "abominations" to the whole realm, Cersei wanted to accuse Selyse of incest. So, with Cersei, it's hard to see if she is just accusing people of this left and right to make herself not look so bad, or just to cast shade on other people.
"So we pay him back in his own coin. Yes, I like this. Who can we name as Lady Selyse's lover? She has two brothers, I believe. And one of her uncles has been with her on Dragonstone all this time . . ." ACOK-Tyrion III
Cersei's first instinct is to accuse Selyse of incest with a brother or uncle, even though it's highly unlikely that is the case. It is only the small council that cautions her against this action. So, when she thinks of the connection between Loras and Marg, it's hard to say if she is seriously thinking this is a possibility, or if she is just throwing shade.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
That is pretty much how all of these chapter discussion have gone. Connections that lead to other connections that finally seem far away from the original post. It's maybe a bit confusing but it does allow for free flow of ideas!
And yes, Ashara might very well be Jonno's mother!
Haha, they do! As I can get very talkative on this subject and posted that before the lid was firmly back on, I just tossed the suggestion out there. No big deal either way for me personally though. I've taken som aspirin for that Dayne-fever and I'm feeling much cooler now!
Thanks, Mojo. It's much the same for me what is done with these posts, so if someone wants them in their own thread that's ok. If not they can just stay here. I was a bit fast on that trigger!
Technically Ashara is connected to Jon in the story... So I'll cling to that excuse! Some doors are best left closed...
But if any admins wants to move them to a separat thread, that's ok with me. Wraith , voice , Mojo , markg171 - it's up to you!
Only if you want us to start a new thread. We can do that for you.
I don't mind it like it is, but it can be changed if people want to. I do have a derailing problem. I probably need a 12 step program to help we with it! I hate to derail a very focused thread, especially when it's someone else's thread and focus, but this reread is pretty open, and all off these threads have wandered a bit.
Plus, it would be work to try and fix it, and I hate that my wandering though process would cause people just busy work. I did try to bring some of it back to Jon II, so maybe it doesn't seem so derailed as it previously did!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It’s fine, i don’t think it really bothers anyone. The only time i remember a report being made against anyone was when voice was reported for participating in Trial By Combat. I don’t think anyone cared then, either. You be you!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I don't mind it like it is, but it can be changed if people want to. I do have a derailing problem. I probably need a 12 step program to help we with it! I hate to derail a very focused thread, especially when it's someone else's thread and focus, but this reread is pretty open, and all off these threads have wandered a bit.
These are pretty open! And rereading several of them in my Luwin hunt, the train of thought isn't hard to follow I think. Many good stuff comes up, and it could be a loss to miss out on them. In a focused thread it's a different matter. And sorry, didn't mean to derail even further with a deraliling discussion on top...
Plus, it would be work to try and fix it, and I hate that my wandering though process would cause people just busy work. I did try to bring some of it back to Jon II, so maybe it doesn't seem so derailed as it previously did!
It’s fine, i don’t think it really bothers anyone. The only time i remember a report being made against anyone was when voice was reported for participating in Trial By Combat. I don’t think anyone cared then, either. You be you!
So, I am going to use this love triangle aspect and try to connect this back to Jon II. As we discussed upthread, there is most definitely some wording in this chapter between Jon and Arya that could be a hint at a future relationship for them. Now, this all could have been written by GRRM before he tossed aside his plans for the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle. But it does indicate that he did have a love triangle involving siblings on his mind.
I think I forgot what might be the most important sibling love triangle of all:
Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. ADWD-The Kingbreaker
I thought about this when I was feeding horses this morning, but after my earlier post, and I had a "Very Disappointed In Myself" moment. Shiera Seastar, Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers, a whole passel of siblings in love! And I think we are still seeing ripples in our story from the issues of these three Great Bastards of Aegon the Unworthy and their love and plots and magic.
Which also brings to mind Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys! Three hundred years of Westerosi history started with a man who was married to his sisters. I know that people like to think this is an issue only with people of Targaryen blood, but I don't think it is. Lot's of triangles in this story and plenty of them involve siblings!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Can we trust this statement as truly being a direct quote from Ned? We already have questionable stuff in Bran's memory, like how Rickard was beheaded, and his ideas's on why Ned gave Brandon and Lyanna statues (because he loved them so much), so I do doubt this statement a bit. Did Ned really think that Arthur was the greatest knight he ever saw? Or does this mean greatest swordsman/warrior he ever saw? Because being a great swordsman doesn't make you a great knight, but if you have the mind and memory of a 7 or 8 year old, that is how it might seem. Children think more simplistically than adults, although I am not sure that GRRM allows these children to really act like children.
Fair question! We do need to take Bran's age into consideration, but in all I think it's pretty accurate. Bran doesn't know the truth of Rikard's death, but neither does Catelyn and she's a grown woman. Here I doubt Ned told anyone the truth if he could avoid it, so that doesn't say anything about Bran's memory capabilities. Of the siblings, he's the only one to be a guide into the crypts (and so for us readers as well). None of the others think about the statues IIRC, so what he tells might just be the reason he was told. If they have been put there for a major reason, I really doubt Ned would tell his children, at least not before they were grown and could understand better. Arya also remembers hearing about Arthur, but it's vague in her memory probably because of lack of interest I imagine. Bran on the other hand has a passion for knights and the kingsguard in particular, so I'd think he'd ask Ned about them. Had he heard Ned actually met (some of) them, more details than that might not be necessary, I'd bet he'd ask Ned in a heartbeat. That might be the reason Ned said anything at all. Many children wants to know everything they can about what they have a passion for, and if this is the case he'd probably asked a lot about knights etc. So he'd know very well what those vows contain. So if Ned actually use those words, it might be his intended meaning. He could also have used the words "finest sword" which could be more leaning to swordsman/fighter, but it seems he didn't. Not rejecting this possiblility entierly, just my gut suspects he used "finest knight" for a spesific reason pointing to something "good" Arthur did that Ned didn't expect. And I might be totally wrong, of course! Martin does do a good job of portraying children, but they might not me just like children. He's an adult, and he needs to convay some information through them as well. Hard to say! (Oh, that is beginning to be my new most used phrase...)
But I do get your point about Arthur possible playing the game of thrones. We know so little that a lot of things are possible. And if he was messing with the politics of the realm, he would not be the first kingsguard to do this type of thing.
Haha, my fever did have a little peak right there! Not anything I've fully put to words yet, so it got a bit jumbled.
So, I am going to use this love triangle aspect and try to connect this back to Jon II. As we discussed upthread, there is most definitely some wording in this chapter between Jon and Arya that could be a hint at a future relationship for them. Now, this all could have been written by GRRM before he tossed aside his plans for the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle. But it does indicate that he did have a love triangle involving siblings on his mind.
For that doesn't sound ominous at all... But there is a fair share of those running around this story!
One that we see in our story is Jaime/Cersei/Robert, and I think that if Cersei had married Rhaegar, she still would not have been able to ignore her feelings for Jaime, so I can see Jaime/Cersei/Rhaegar as a possibility.
We talked about the possibility of Loras/Margaery/Renly that was probably in the works, and yes, Marg would have been a broodmare of a sort, but still, bringing high honor's to the Tyrell family if she could produce an heir for Renly. Whether he was truly a king or not is debatable. Now, I do like the irony of Marg producing and heir for the Iron Throne with her brother instead of her husband (either Joff or Tommen works for this) which is exactly what Cersei and Jaime did to Robert.
We talked about the possibility of Arthur/Ashara/Rhaegar, and in this scenario, either Arthur or Ashara could have been Rhaegar's primary lover/interest, with the other sibling completing the triangle for ambition or family gain.
So, we have hints of Jon and Arya, and we also have hints of a developing relationship between Arya and Gendry. So, that is a possible triangle in conflict, Jon/Arya/Gendry.
Jamie/Cersei/Rhaegar - I think Cersei would've been very disappointed in Rheagar as well and turned to Jamie. His feelings towards Robert is also affected of what happened at the end of RR, but there might have ended with resentment to Rhaegar as well. So there very well might have been a light-version of what we see with J/C/R.
Loras/Margaery/Renly - interesting thought of L&M mirroring C&J! I really was unsure about that, as I've not looked for any real sexual tention between the two. I have the possibility open though. And that puts an interesting light on Jamie's thoughts in Loras being just like himself at that age!
Arthur/Ashara/Rheagar - I need to think more on this, as I've not taken the time pondering that possible part of the story.
Jon/Arya/Gendry - would make an interesting continuation of the story if it lasts long enough!
And I think this could be an echo of a previous love triangle, either Lyanna/Brandon/Robert, or Lyanna/Eddard/Robert. I personally connect to Eddard more, because Robert and Eddard were friends, and in the rest of these triagles, it seems like there is some mutual affection or esteem between all the players. We don't ever really get the idea that Robert and Brandon knew each other, although I am sure they did, but there is no relationship in question between those two men, even though I think Robert and Brandon are probably echoes of each other for different reasons than this.
If there is to be some esteem between all players, I'm really not sure I'd take Jamie/Cersei/Robert into that pile. I really don't see Jamie ever liking Robert, though we see this from 15 years on. My impression is that Rhaegar will always be his prince and true heir, even if he seems to do anything in his power for Tommen now. That being said, the two possibilities you mention is good and I agree with Eddard being the best option. A Brandon - Robert tention play could get interesting, as I think they'd be too much alike for that to go smoothly! If you're willing to have a non-Starkcest into that pool, we also could consider Brandon/Eddard/Ashara as a possibility. That would exlude any Rhaegar-Ashara baby.
Jon II is the first chapter that I feel is an overt nod to Arya and Jon. Arya I hints at a great affection but it doesn't step up to this level, until you see it, and then you look back, and you notice it's there, too!
So, this series has hints of many love triangles, but several involving siblings.
Another one that I think is hinted at could be Robb/Sansa/Joffrey. We never see anything sexual between Robb and Sansa and we probably never would have. But Robb and Joffrey don't like one another, and Sansa is obviously head over heals crushing on her golden prince. That sets them up as a triangle of people with two parties in love and two parties in hate, and indicates a great deal of possible conflict. Now, the book doesn't really go into this, but I just rewatched the pilot episode last week, and I noted how Robb gives Sansa a look when she is making goo goo eyes at Joff, and then he gives Joff the stink eye. This is all in the courtyard, prior to Robert hobbling down from his horse. (I hated that show to book change by the way, because even if he was fat, Robert still vaulted off his horse in the books and crushed Eddard in a strong hug). I thought the play between Robb/Joff/Sansa in the show was very interesting!
Huh, interesting! Haven't seen the early seasons for ages, so couldn't remember that. If I even noticed that is. I've more seen this as a possibility for an ecco of the imfamous crowning, but as a purely non-sexual one.
Ashara very well could have been dancing with Arthur, and it might or might not have been platonic. This story is told by Howland's children from his recollections with no names and just hints at who the characters were, and I doubt that Howland is going to implant the idea of incest to his young children. But as we discussed, we know very little about the dynamic of the Dayne family.
It is easy to set aside some of Cersei's thoughts and statement. Especially in this case. But we do know that Margaery was drinking moon tea for some reason, and although I think it will be revealed it has nothing to do with pregnancy prevention, there is a chance it might. And Loras spent a lot of time with Marg. It reminds me a bit of hints that Anne Boleyn was accused of incest. Now, it might have been just a falsification to help her husband have her executed, but if she really was desperate to have a child, she might have turned to her brother, whom she would have trusted, whom she would have had access too, and whom had as much to lose as she did if the Boleyn's fell from power. Which they did, when Anne could not produce a male heir for her husband.
I just get a bit of a Boleyn vibe from the Tyrells. Both families were barely nobility, then uplifted to a higher power (the Tyrells were stewards to the Gardner's before Aegon destroyed them 300 years before), then with marriage they both very much increased the fortunes of their families. The Tyrell's better worry that they have already outreached themselves.
Of course, after Stannis accused she and Jaime of incest, and that her children were "abominations" to the whole realm, Cersei wanted to accuse Selyse of incest. So, with Cersei, it's hard to see if she is just accusing people of this left and right to make herself not look so bad, or just to cast shade on other people.
Margaery's moontea is one thing I haven't really figured out yet. Have considered that she didn't drink it herself, but for some reason got it for someone else. No conclution drawn there. But one question: would there be any other medical or other benefit from drinking this? There is Boleyn hints around her, even with the different courts she was at. Renly = french, KL = England. I don't doubt the Tyrells would do most anything for ambition, and I look forward to dive deeper into them as well! If Martin follows the Boleyn arc, there could just be a long fall ahead of them... But probably not in the way the Boleyns fell. Not simply disregard Cersei's thoughts on this was something I did when I read it last, as it's too obvious of a trap. Even if she does see this through her own warped lense, there still might be something there. As we only see them from her eyes we don't get an alternative view.
I think I forgot what might be the most important sibling love triangle of all:
Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. ADWD-The Kingbreaker
I thought about this when I was feeding horses this morning, but after my earlier post, and I had a "Very Disappointed In Myself" moment. Shiera Seastar, Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers, a whole passel of siblings in love! And I think we are still seeing ripples in our story from the issues of these three Great Bastards of Aegon the Unworthy and their love and plots and magic.
Ah, yes! Those three must not be forgotten! Mayhaps our best prototype for these relationships? Or at least some of them?
Which also brings to mind Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys! Three hundred years of Westerosi history started with a man who was married to his sisters. I know that people like to think this is an issue only with people of Targaryen blood, but I don't think it is. Lot's of triangles in this story and plenty of them involve siblings!
Could we be dealing with two prototypes of these triangles? With Bloodraven, Bittersteel and Shiera we have something very antagonistic, but with Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys I get the impression of a more harmonic one.
Bran doesn't know the truth of Rikard's death, but neither does Catelyn and she's a grown woman. Here I doubt Ned told anyone the truth if he could avoid it, so that doesn't say anything about Bran's memory capabilities.
If the truth is that Rickard was roasted in his own armor, and hundreds of people stood around and watched it, I don't know how this story is not more well known. I get that Bran might not have heard the truth, but Catelyn seems a bit of a stretch for me. I think the only person that comments on the horror of their deaths is Jaime. Now, the show implies that the hall was full of Lords, but the book does not, so I suppose it's possible that only Aerys, his kinsguard, his pyromancer's and Rickard and Brandon were in the room, and that is why the story has remained so quiet. Is it possible that Ned never knew the truth? Robert might have found out from Jaime and Barristan but decided to never tell Ned? I don't know. The only thing that has remained consistent through several POV's is that Brandon was strangled, which Ned tells us in his first POV, and that Rickard was forced to watch his son die. Are you watching much of anything when you are being BBQ'd?
"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" AGOT-Eddard II
No details from Robert, but he seems to consider both Brandon and Rickard's deaths unspeakable, but in my opinion, being strangled is not nearly so bad as being slowly cooked to death. I just think there is something missing in the retelling. I suppose it's possible that Robert never knew the truth that Jaime tells Catelyn, either? Or Jaime is lying, but Jaime almost seems infected by truth serum at this point in his captivity, and he has never struck me as being a liar. It just feel like we are missing something.
But what if Robert was protecting Ned from an awful truth? I rather like this idea, since in the end of Robert's life, Ned protected his best friend from the awful truth of Cersei's children.
And we get hints from Barristan that Aerys was doing some awful things.
In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing. ADWD-The Queensguard
He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. ADWD-The Queensguard
So, no details from Barristan, but it's easy to think that he could be referring to Rickard and Brandon's death's here. And we know that Aerys did seem to prefer wildfire as a form of execution near the end. Those "truths" come from Jaime, however. A man who might need to justify the reason that he killed a king he had sworn to protect!
None of the others think about the statues IIRC, so what he tells might just be the reason he was told.
Actually, Ned tells us this in his first POV, and I think it's rather odd.
By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. AGOT-Eddard I
At this point, we don't know who has a statue, so this doesn't seem to odd. In Ned's mind, only those who had been Lord of Winterfell had swords laid across their laps. Okay. But then we learn that Brandon's statue has a sword, and as far as we know he was never Lord of Winterfell. So that is inconsistent, but that isn't until Clash. It is in Clash that we also hear of Artos the Implacable, who is not called a Lord, having a statue in the crypts. Later in Game we learn that Brandon and Lyanna were not supposed to have statues but Ned loved them and wanted them to have statues. No one ever mentions if Lyanna's statue has a sword by I am sure it doesn't. This seems like something Robert would have commented on when seeing her statue, I would think.
But this brings me back to Ned's original thought that "an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell". So the each throws me on reread. If only the Lords are supposed to have statues, then all of them should have a sword laid across their lap. And we know that Brandon has a sword, because Bran takes it when leaving Winterfell. Did Ned view Brandon as a Lord of Winterfell, even though by all reports, it seems like Brandon died before Rickard? We don't know about Artos the Implacable, the other Stark male who seems to have a statue in the crypts. But why does Ned think what he thinks about "each" who had been Lord of Winterfell if they all are supposed to have been Lords of Winterfell? Does this not include the Kings in the North or the Kings of Winter? I doubt that. How long does it take iron to turn to dust? Longer than 300 years, I would think.
I could be overthinking the line by Ned. GRRM might have changed his own canon between the first book and second. Maybe he never intended for Brandon to have a sword? I just think that Ned's use of the words "each who had been Lord of Winterfell" seems very odd.
Many children wants to know everything they can about what they have a passion for, and if this is the case he'd probably asked a lot about knights etc. So he'd know very well what those vows contain.
Bran is only seven and I am not sure that he truly has an understanding of what a knights vows entail. Hell, even Jon at 14 didn't have a complete understanding of what the Night's Watch vows would mean? Why should Bran have greater understanding that his elder brother? I just really question some of the information we get from Bran, maybe because of his age, or maybe because he get's some of his information not directly from a source, but from climbing and spying and eavesdropping on people.
Jamie/Cersei/Rhaegar - I think Cersei would've been very disappointed in Rheagar as well and turned to Jamie. His feelings towards Robert is also affected of what happened at the end of RR, but there might have ended with resentment to Rhaegar as well. So there very well might have been a light-version of what we see with J/C/R.
Loras/Margaery/Renly - interesting thought of L&M mirroring C&J! I really was unsure about that, as I've not looked for any real sexual tention between the two. I have the possibility open though. And that puts an interesting light on Jamie's thoughts in Loras being just like himself at that age!
Arthur/Ashara/Rheagar - I need to think more on this, as I've not taken the time pondering that possible part of the story.
Jon/Arya/Gendry - would make an interesting continuation of the story if it lasts long enough!
I did warn you that once I decided to be open minded about the incest in the story, I started to see it everywhere!
If you're willing to have a non-Starkcest into that pool, we also could consider Brandon/Eddard/Ashara as a possibility.
Yes, that is another option. And it is possible that one of them loved her and the other seduced her. Which did which, do you suppose? Part of me still thinks that Brandon went galloping off to the Red Keep because he heard something about Ashara, and not about Lyanna at all. Time will tell! I think that there could be a Brandon/Ashara/Rhaegar thing going on.
Another thought that just crossed my mind would be Brandon/Eddard/Barbrey, if indeed she did attempt to set a hook into both Stark brothers.
Margaery's moontea is one thing I haven't really figured out yet. Have considered that she didn't drink it herself, but for some reason got it for someone else. No conclution drawn there. But one question: would there be any other medical or other benefit from drinking this?
I would think so. Just off the top of my head, some women take birthcontrol, not for actual birth prevention, but to stop heavy bleeding or even painful menstration, or to help their cycles be more regular, so it's possible that Marg was using it for any of those reasons. I feel like Pycelle wanted to say more, but Cersei cut him off. She had just enough information to be damning. That is why I figure if Margaery ever get's around to a trial, she will have a good reason for the moon tea.
The mixture called Tansy (or something similar, I haven't the book to check, so please forgive any names' distortion) is truly an abortion mixture or something you have invented?
No, it's real enough. Tansy and pennyroyal are two powerful (and DANGEROUS) natural abortifactants. Carelessly used, however, they can kill, so I was purposely vague and added a few fantasy touches to "moon tea." I did not want anyone trying them in real life. A web search will turn you plenty of both of them.
So, Tansy and Pennyroyal are the two substances that he names.
I looked into several web sites before I found what seemed like a legitimate herbal medicine site. Here is what I found.
Medicinal use of Tansy: Tansy is a commonly grown domestic remedy, useful in treating a wide range of complaints, though it is little used in modern herbalism. Its main value is as a vermifuge to expel intestinal worms and, to a lesser degree, to help stimulate menstrual bleeding. Tansy should be used with caution, however, it is possibly unsafe for internal use, especially if you are pregnant. The essential oil in the leaves is toxic and as little as ?oz can kill an adult. The leaves and flowering tops are anthelmintic, antispasmodic, bitter, carminative, emmenagogue, stimulant and tonic. An infusion of the leaves or whole plant is used to treat menstrual irregularities and as an anthelmintic, especially for children. It is also valuable in treating hysteria, kidney weaknesses, stomach problems, fevers and also as an emmenagogue. In larger doses the plant can procure an abortion, though these doses can be poisonous. Externally, tansy is used as a poultice on swellings and some eruptive skin diseases. It is also used externally to kill lice, fleas and scabies, though even external use of the plant carries the risk of toxicity. The plant is harvested as it is coming into flower and is dried for later use. The seeds are used as an anthelmintic.
Medicinal use of Pennyroyal: Pennyroyal has been used for centuries in herbal medicine. Its main value is as a digestive tonic where it increases the secretion of digestive juices and relieves flatulence and colic. Pennyroyal also powerfully stimulates the uterine muscles and encourages menstruation, thus it should not be prescribed for pregnant women since it can procure abortions, this is especially the case if the essential oil is used. The herb is antiseptic, antispasmodic, carminative, diaphoretic, emmenagogue, sedative and stimulant. A tea made from the leaves has traditionally been used in the treatment of fevers, headaches, minor respiratory infections, digestive disorders, menstrual complaints and various minor ailments. It is occasionally used as a treatment for intestinal worms. Externally, an infusion is used to treat itchiness and formication, inflamed skin disorders such as eczema and rheumatic conditions such as gout. The leaves are harvested in the summer as the plant comes into flower and are dried for later use. The essential oil in the leaves is antiseptic, though it is toxic in large doses.
It would not surprise me if Margaery was using this for a completely logical reason that had nothing to do with abortions. Had Tywin still been alive, he might have investigated, but Cersei immediately thinks the worst possible thing and runs with it. She is completely out of control!
First, again Jon is denying any Starkness, seperating himself from his father and brothers.
For me this separation between himself and his father and half siblings was a result of the previous scene. No matter how strong this 14 yr old boy is he's still susceptible to heartbreak. Catlyn's rejection of him and her "it should have been you" was bound to make him even more isolated if possible. "You Starks" sounded in my mind like a reproach, his own rejection of the Stark family as a reaction to not being wanted by Cat and a repressed desire of belonging all rolled into one!
I have never used this interaction between Arya and Jon to try to decipher something from the past. I can only see the hints of Jon and Arya in this passage. Soft grey leather, supple as sin, drew out the blade slowly, stick them with the pointy end, showered with kisses, grinning like a fool, etc. It's a Jon/Arya hint as subtle as a war hammer over the head.
I linked shymaid's evidence of Starkcest to Martin's initial proposal to his editor In a flash I discovered that with reading that letter I have totally sullied my thoughts! Where before this interaction seemed innocent and brotherly, now I felt undertones of weirdness and incest. Wish I'd never read that silly initial proposal.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
Sorry folks but everyone knows that Arthur Dayne was about 37-38 when Luke Roberts shot the scenes at TOJ
Everyone!
That being said I imagined him to be older than Ashara by a few yrs. Somehow never thought they might be twins.
Ha! Problem solved!
I try not to use the show too much with figuring out the book but now that you mention the casting, it is interesting that the person that was cast as SAD was much older in contrast to a young Ned. Now, does that mean anything, or not?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I have never used this interaction between Arya and Jon to try to decipher something from the past. I can only see the hints of Jon and Arya in this passage. Soft grey leather, supple as sin, drew out the blade slowly, stick them with the pointy end, showered with kisses, grinning like a fool, etc. It's a Jon/Arya hint as subtle as a war hammer over the head.
I linked shymaid 's evidence of Starkcest to Martin's initial proposal to his editor In a flash I discovered that with reading that letter I have totally sullied my thoughts! Where before this interaction seemed innocent and brotherly, now I felt undertones of weirdness and incest. Wish I'd never read that silly initial proposal.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it!!!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.