Post by shymaid on Nov 4, 2017 10:43:24 GMT
A sad chapter, a joyous chapter, and one of the most angering chapter to me.
The surface story tells us a lot, and is enjoyable in it self, but it's also full of forshadowing and other clues that are interesting to proble. As always, I'll try to keep it to parentage. I have made some notes, but it will also be a fair bit of free-thinking as I write it up.
I think there could be a strongish ecco of Ned here, but possibly jumbled up with two (or more?) happenings like I think the toj-dream is. It starts with:
Could this be an ecco of Ned? Going into the room where Lyanna lay dying filled with dread? I think it could be. Then mentioning of snow blowing in through the gates is interesting, but not quite sure how to phrase it yet. Ned bringing in the cloak of snow, perhaps?
The "too quiet" sets the mood, of course, but it's also interesting as Jon and Ghost both are Quiet Wolves, as is Ned.
With Ghost coming behind him I wonder which ghosts Ned might have brought with him to his final moments with his sister. Brandon and Rikard? Arthur if ALJ? Ashara? We already have Brandon and a woman identified as ghosts between Ned and Cat, so would these be the same?
Jon is leaving, and Lyanna was dying.
Now, Jon calls her Lady Stark the whole time as their relationship is anything but close or even friendly. But in this case, could it be something that eccoes Lady Dayne perhaps? A grieving sister and mother? If this is an accurate ecco, it would seem Ned and Ashara isn't on the best of termes...
This reminds me of the two times we know Ned put his foot down to Cat, and again we see her bowing down to the demand.
Eccoing the agony and pain of Ned stealing another child from it's mother?
Excuse me a minute while I rage at this cruel treatment of a child!
There, the worst is out of my system!
Now, that she seems to see his face for the first time strikes me as really odd! I know she basically wishes him dead in a few seconds, but considering that Jon looks like Ned... Is Jon a stand-in for Ned here? Something she'd never dare say to her husband so she goes after his son instead? It was Ned who was going to "steal" her favorite child, and her prayers seems to have been heard.
Going back to the ecco, did someone think the wrong Stark brother lived? If so, was it Ashara or Lyanna?
My last bolded part doesn't really concern any parentage, but probably helps Jon to see her as a human being with faults, lost in grief. It does help me at least, even if I only noticed it after several rereads. Not defending her taking it out on a 14 year old, but still.
So it doesn't seem like the strained relationship between Jon and Cat is a secret. Jon shoulders the burden instead of making a difficult situation and day even worse for his brother.
Some interesting parts on the dialogue between the brothers, that I will jumble a bit:
Already Robb is starting to shoulder the burden placed on him, a bigger burden than Ned had inteded. Much of this is Robb's own personality, but how much comes from Grey Wind? Jon finds courage and strength from Ghost, so I bet Grey Wind gives the same to Robb!
It usually is!
Call me crazy, but this sounds a lot like a red and white image to me! A weirwood image! If you take in the heat too we get something like ice and fire. Not sure how/where to put this, but it certainly hit me in this read.
And this image will haunt Jon later.
And I'm not going to mention anything about Starks melting when they venture too far south!
First, again Jon is denying any Starkness, seperating himself from his father and brothers.
Still, they are close like brothers and will miss each other, but hugging in public is not manly enough for two almost grown men!
The solidarity between them apart, that image is rather curious to me. Don't know what to make of it, but I had to include it.
Next up we get Jon and Arya!
Totally irrelevant, but while Bran couldn't get Summer to fetch his stick, Arya has fetching down to an art!
Again we see Nymeria very much the subordinate of Ghost.
Another part of the chapter that makes me ! I smell Septa Mordane = Catelyn by proxy.
And Arya being Arya.
When you get into the "right" frame of mind, this little passage takes on a different kind of air! It really reminds me of another notable passage that we'll get much much later:
Takes on a different meaning now, doesn't it! A nod to Starkcest in my mind!
Wait! It gets better!
It's not even really subtle!
One last tidbit here!
But which Stark? That's the question! The part with Catelyn is hard to pin down, as there seems to be two eccoes in there. If Ned took a babe from Ashara, it could be a non-Stark babe. Or we have two Stark-children in play there.
Do we get any other clues?
This sounds like one! Probably an inversion, so the brother is heading south. Here Ned is the most obvious one, as he spends so much time in the Vale. If it was Brandon the direction would be east in my mind. Still, we can't ignore him as we don't know what happened at that time, or where it was taking place.
Or was it Lyanna who went south? If so, Lyanna left while Rikard stayed at Winterfell.
The last option is Benjen, and he seems to have gone back north. If so, the brother was indeed going north.
Hard to decide!
The surface story tells us a lot, and is enjoyable in it self, but it's also full of forshadowing and other clues that are interesting to proble. As always, I'll try to keep it to parentage. I have made some notes, but it will also be a fair bit of free-thinking as I write it up.
I think there could be a strongish ecco of Ned here, but possibly jumbled up with two (or more?) happenings like I think the toj-dream is. It starts with:
Jon climbed the steps slowly, trying not to think that this might be the last time ever. Ghost padded silently beside him. Outside, snow swirled through the castle gates, and the yard was all noise and chaos, but inside the thick stone walls it was still warm and quiet. Too quiet for Jon's liking.
He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room.
He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room.
Could this be an ecco of Ned? Going into the room where Lyanna lay dying filled with dread? I think it could be. Then mentioning of snow blowing in through the gates is interesting, but not quite sure how to phrase it yet. Ned bringing in the cloak of snow, perhaps?
The "too quiet" sets the mood, of course, but it's also interesting as Jon and Ghost both are Quiet Wolves, as is Ned.
With Ghost coming behind him I wonder which ghosts Ned might have brought with him to his final moments with his sister. Brandon and Rikard? Arthur if ALJ? Ashara? We already have Brandon and a woman identified as ghosts between Ned and Cat, so would these be the same?
But now there was no more time.
Jon is leaving, and Lyanna was dying.
Lady Stark looked over. For a moment she did not seem to recognize him. Finally she blinked. "What are you doing here?" she asked in a voice strangely flat and emotionless.
Now, Jon calls her Lady Stark the whole time as their relationship is anything but close or even friendly. But in this case, could it be something that eccoes Lady Dayne perhaps? A grieving sister and mother? If this is an accurate ecco, it would seem Ned and Ashara isn't on the best of termes...
"Shall I call the guards?"
"Call them," Jon said, defiant. "You can't stop me from seeing him." He crossed the room, keeping the bed between them, and looked down on Bran where he lay.
"Call them," Jon said, defiant. "You can't stop me from seeing him." He crossed the room, keeping the bed between them, and looked down on Bran where he lay.
This reminds me of the two times we know Ned put his foot down to Cat, and again we see her bowing down to the demand.
"I prayed for it," she said dully. "He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered."
Eccoing the agony and pain of Ned stealing another child from it's mother?
He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.
"Yes?" he said.
"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.
"Yes?" he said.
"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.
Excuse me a minute while I rage at this cruel treatment of a child!
There, the worst is out of my system!
Now, that she seems to see his face for the first time strikes me as really odd! I know she basically wishes him dead in a few seconds, but considering that Jon looks like Ned... Is Jon a stand-in for Ned here? Something she'd never dare say to her husband so she goes after his son instead? It was Ned who was going to "steal" her favorite child, and her prayers seems to have been heard.
Going back to the ecco, did someone think the wrong Stark brother lived? If so, was it Ashara or Lyanna?
My last bolded part doesn't really concern any parentage, but probably helps Jon to see her as a human being with faults, lost in grief. It does help me at least, even if I only noticed it after several rereads. Not defending her taking it out on a 14 year old, but still.
Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother …"
"She was … very kind," Jon told him.
"She was … very kind," Jon told him.
So it doesn't seem like the strained relationship between Jon and Cat is a secret. Jon shoulders the burden instead of making a difficult situation and day even worse for his brother.
Some interesting parts on the dialogue between the brothers, that I will jumble a bit:
Robb was in the middle of it, shouting commands with the best of them. He seemed to have grown of late, as if Bran's fall and his mother's collapse had somehow made him stronger. Grey Wind was at his side.
Already Robb is starting to shoulder the burden placed on him, a bigger burden than Ned had inteded. Much of this is Robb's own personality, but how much comes from Grey Wind? Jon finds courage and strength from Ghost, so I bet Grey Wind gives the same to Robb!
He looked around at all the noise and confusion. "Leaving is harder than I thought."
"For me too," Robb said.
"For me too," Robb said.
It usually is!
He had snow in his hair, melting from the heat of his body.
Call me crazy, but this sounds a lot like a red and white image to me! A weirwood image! If you take in the heat too we get something like ice and fire. Not sure how/where to put this, but it certainly hit me in this read.
And this image will haunt Jon later.
And I'm not going to mention anything about Starks melting when they venture too far south!
"You Starks are hard to kill," Jon agreed. His voice was flat and tired. The visit had taken all the strength from him.
<snip>
"The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."
Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color. How long do you think it will be?"
"Soon enough," Robb promised. He pulled Jon to him and embraced him fiercely. "Farewell, Snow."
Jon hugged him back. "And you, Stark. Take care of Bran."
"I will." They broke apart and looked at each other awkwardly.
<snip>
"The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."
Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color. How long do you think it will be?"
"Soon enough," Robb promised. He pulled Jon to him and embraced him fiercely. "Farewell, Snow."
Jon hugged him back. "And you, Stark. Take care of Bran."
"I will." They broke apart and looked at each other awkwardly.
First, again Jon is denying any Starkness, seperating himself from his father and brothers.
Still, they are close like brothers and will miss each other, but hugging in public is not manly enough for two almost grown men!
"I have one more farewell to make," Jon told him.
"Then I haven't seen you," Robb replied. Jon left him standing there in the snow, surrounded by wagons and wolves and horses.
"Then I haven't seen you," Robb replied. Jon left him standing there in the snow, surrounded by wagons and wolves and horses.
The solidarity between them apart, that image is rather curious to me. Don't know what to make of it, but I had to include it.
Next up we get Jon and Arya!
Arya was in her room, packing a polished ironwood chest that was bigger than she was. Nymeria was helping. Arya would only have to point, and the wolf would bound across the room, snatch up some wisp of silk in her jaws, and fetch it back. But when she smelled Ghost, she sat down on her haunches and yelped at them.
Totally irrelevant, but while Bran couldn't get Summer to fetch his stick, Arya has fetching down to an art!
Again we see Nymeria very much the subordinate of Ghost.
Arya glanced behind her, saw Jon, and jumped to her feet. She threw her skinny arms tight around his neck. "I was afraid you were gone," she said, her breath catching in her throat. "They wouldn't let me out to say good-bye."
"What did you do now?" Jon was amused.
"What did you do now?" Jon was amused.
And Arya being Arya.
The scabbard was soft grey leather, supple as sin. Jon drew out the blade slowly, so she could see the deep blue sheen of the steel. "This is no toy," he told her. "Be careful you don't cut yourself. The edges are sharp enough to shave with."
"Girls don't shave," Arya said.
"Maybe they should. Have you ever seen the septa's legs?"
"Girls don't shave," Arya said.
"Maybe they should. Have you ever seen the septa's legs?"
When you get into the "right" frame of mind, this little passage takes on a different kind of air! It really reminds me of another notable passage that we'll get much much later:
"Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."
My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.
Takes on a different meaning now, doesn't it! A nod to Starkcest in my mind!
Wait! It gets better!
"You'll have to work at it every day." He put the sword in her hands, showed her how to hold it, and stepped back. "How does it feel? Do you like the balance?"
"I think so," Arya said.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Arya gave him a whap on the arm with the flat of her blade. The blow stung, but Jon found himself grinning like an idiot. "I know which end to use," Arya said.
"I think so," Arya said.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Arya gave him a whap on the arm with the flat of her blade. The blow stung, but Jon found himself grinning like an idiot. "I know which end to use," Arya said.
It's not even really subtle!
Arya ran to him for a last hug. "Put down the sword first," Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.
One last tidbit here!
But which Stark? That's the question! The part with Catelyn is hard to pin down, as there seems to be two eccoes in there. If Ned took a babe from Ashara, it could be a non-Stark babe. Or we have two Stark-children in play there.
Do we get any other clues?
The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.
This sounds like one! Probably an inversion, so the brother is heading south. Here Ned is the most obvious one, as he spends so much time in the Vale. If it was Brandon the direction would be east in my mind. Still, we can't ignore him as we don't know what happened at that time, or where it was taking place.
Or was it Lyanna who went south? If so, Lyanna left while Rikard stayed at Winterfell.
The last option is Benjen, and he seems to have gone back north. If so, the brother was indeed going north.
Hard to decide!